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BG-09
09-30-2010, 08:46 PM
I can not believe it. It is a TRAGEDY:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tJb-bmgBC0&NR=1

Unbelieveble... Speechless.

Splitter
09-30-2010, 09:00 PM
Awwww, that is a tragedy!

Splitter

BLR_Tonin_fr
09-30-2010, 10:17 PM
Just watched the all story of 6 part.

I'm speechless as well as sad.

Thanks for sharing.

mazex
09-30-2010, 10:26 PM
I saw the whole TV-show some years ago and yes - it's a tragedy that they even thought of taking a plane that had been there in the snow for 50 years and take of from a badly plowed lake even if the engines etc where "new"... Hell - if taxing a plane in bad shape why not make sure the runway was smoth before trying? You can clearly see the violent oscillations that occurrs. Why not take it a bit easy while taxiing? Probably afraid to get stuck in the badly plowed strip...

Why not spend the time dismantling it and persuade the guys at Thule to borrow them a fat heli to lift the stuff away?

major_setback
09-30-2010, 10:57 PM
At first I thought ..wtf, wtf, wtf...what are they doing!! Then later...oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...
..such a disappointment, such a waste!!
Who let those idiots do that???? Such a priceless machine in incompetent hands. Dear God!
I don't know what I feel more sad about...the fact that such a beautiful priceless machine is lost, or the fact that people will even do that. It was obviously liable to fail at some time in a first flight after so many years without proper maintenance...it was just very, very lucky that no one was killed.

Ohhhhhh, the lack of humanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fooooooooooooooooooooooooooools!

Romanator21
09-30-2010, 11:30 PM
Especially tragic because the engineer, Rick Kriege, literally worked himself to death on this project. All squandered in seconds by poor planning, poor judgment, impatience, and greed.

Feuerfalke
09-30-2010, 11:34 PM
Maybe it was just doomed to stay right there.


Luckily nobody got hurt, luckily, it didn't catch fire after it was airborne.

Urufu_Shinjiro
09-30-2010, 11:43 PM
I haven't seen all six parts, but was there any other way to get that plane out of there OTHER than fly it out? Seems an experienced test pilot who's built his own planes before would know enough not to do this unless there wasn't any other choice.

Romanator21
09-30-2010, 11:59 PM
But he still rushed the entire project - notice how it was taxiing. One should never attempt to takeoff any plane from a "runway" like that, much less a 50 year old one. Could you imagine that going at full speed?

Their bulldozer did not have proper flattening equipment, just the plow. They had less than half the runway that was required in the operating manual. The APU broke loose from the bouncing and caught fire, but it wasn't supposed to be on after engine start-up in the first place.

You can hear Darryl say "someone left the APU on..." but as PIC it's his responsibility to ensure that it was off, and his responsibility to have the balls to say "no-go" in the first place and take more time to make sure everything is right.

There are just a string of things that are absolutely wrong with this. In the second or third part, he's talking with a weather briefer on the radio, who advises against flying due to weather - but he goes anyway. It may all seem like minor cock-ups, but it all adds up with disastrous consequences. This is how 99% of air accidents happen.

I get the impression that he was just too impatient, too complacent, too much of a fighter-jock to take on a serious project such as this. It was better left to more competent leadership.

That's my rant...

WTE_Galway
10-01-2010, 12:45 AM
I remember that debacle. people at the time claimed they should have dismantled it and flown it out in parts.

If I recall correctly the fire was caused by jury rigged temporary generators not the 50 year old airframe ?

I also remember alot of recrimination becasue they not only lost a rare warbird but also 4 equally rare newly rebuilt Wright R3350's

swiss
10-01-2010, 01:23 AM
it's not like the b29 is a rare plane, is it?

WTE_Galway
10-01-2010, 01:40 AM
it's not like the b29 is a rare plane, is it?

True we do have Fifi flying again.

One airworthy should be enough, we shouldn't get greedy :D

swiss
10-01-2010, 01:54 AM
and e-gay. ;)

WTE_Galway
10-01-2010, 03:23 AM
and e-gay. ;)

Enola Gay is not likely to be ever airworthy AFAIK

Although there was an April Fool's hoax at one stage claiming it was doing a flight across America.

swiss
10-01-2010, 06:11 AM
Why do they need to be airworthy at all?
They are ok an display in a "potential airworthy" status.
Since they are rare, why put them at risk of frequent flying?

Ok, it's probably just me. ;)

WTE_Galway
10-01-2010, 06:38 AM
Why do they need to be airworthy at all?
They are ok an display in a "potential airworthy" status.
Since they are rare, why put them at risk of frequent flying?

Ok, it's probably just me. ;)


Because museums full of static displays of gutted aircraft that just look good from a distance is equivalent to replacing all the live animals in a zoo with stuffed ones :D

LukeFF
10-01-2010, 06:52 AM
Enola Gay is not likely to be ever airworthy AFAIK

Not a chance in the world. It's on display in the D.C. area.

One could only imagine the protests that would happen if they even thought about flying it again.

Hunden
10-01-2010, 07:30 AM
Nothing like monday morning quarterbacking from the armchair :confused:

swiss
10-01-2010, 08:51 AM
Because museums full of static displays of gutted aircraft that just look good from a distance is equivalent to replacing all the live animals in a zoo with stuffed ones :D

Not really, lol.

When was the last time you've seen an elephant ditch? ;)

[we don't have to discuss having running engines, I'd love to see/hear them]

swiss
10-01-2010, 09:16 AM
Ok I must admit I just clicked the vid the first time.
Yes - this is indeed hard to believe, fcuking amateurs, they shouldn't have touched the plane in the first place; obviously done only half the job, what they have done was dilettantish.
If don't have the resources for project(mental and/or financial) - just leave it.

At least now we have 4 pristine B29 engines, and maybe a box of other hard-to-get spares.

lol.


No - in fact no lol at all. It's a damn shame. Those morons should be exposed and publicly humiliated. I guess YT done this already.

Romanator21
10-01-2010, 09:38 AM
I think they left the engines sink with the plane. I don't think they bothered to salvage anything.

Absolutely disastrous. I hope he doesn't take on any more "restoration" projects as he said he would.

Tacoma74
10-01-2010, 09:49 AM
What a flock of amateurs... Saw this a few years ago on TV and it makes me sick to my stomach every time i watch it. I have nothing but utter disgust for him and his team. It could have been easily avoided, but with such ignorance i suppose there was only one outcome. Poor ol' plane... :(

Xilon_x
10-01-2010, 10:01 AM
AMERICAN copy esact project of Messerschmitt Me 264 canche name in B29
for my opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdUAucryZII
not 'a copy but plagiarism.
means that they have taken the original project of the Messerschmitt Me 264 and have modified and improved.

swiss
10-01-2010, 10:53 AM
I hope he doesn't take on any more "restoration" projects as he said he would.

That last sentence scared the sh1t out of me too.

Just imagine what would have happened if they indeed managed to take off - they would have lost a whole wing before the first turn...

swiss
10-01-2010, 10:56 AM
AMERICAN copy esact project of Messerschmitt Me 264 canche name in B29
for my opinion.
not 'a copy but plagiarism.
means that they have taken the original project of the Messerschmitt Me 264 and have modified and improved.

Sometimes my friend, ppl on both sides have the same idea, the same time.
Think of the TA183 and the Mig15 f.i.

Romanator21
10-01-2010, 11:05 AM
Think of the TA183 and the Mig15 f.i.

Terrible example :) They can't even be compared.

I prefer to compare the T-144 and the Concorde, or the Buran and any one of our shuttles. :grin:

And Xylon: B-29 first flew in September 1942, the Me-264 flew in December of that year. So, who's copying who? ;)

Cheers mate.

swiss
10-01-2010, 11:26 AM
Terrible example :) They can't even be compared.


But how many ppl did, just because they look "somewhat the same"?
;)

The T144 was based on stolen blueprints (the Kfir too btw).
Buran well, lol.

Tiger27
10-01-2010, 11:27 AM
That's a coincidence, I just finished a book about warbird recovery, Hunting Warbirds by Karl Hoffman, that focused on the Kee Bird, apparently it caught fire because of a jerry rigged APU :evil:

swiss
10-01-2010, 11:31 AM
That's a coincidence, I just finished a book about warbird recovery, Hunting Warbirds by Karl Hoffman, that focused on the Kee Bird, apparently it caught fire because of a jerry rigged APU :evil:

That's what they said in the vid too.

But they "FIXED IT", right?

I wouldn't even let them fix my bicycle. :evil:

And they didn't even have the nerve to put the stuff at least back over solid soil, for future scavengers. F-F-Faces.

LukeFF
10-01-2010, 11:38 AM
AMERICAN copy esact project of Messerschmitt Me 264 canche name in B29
for my opinion.

not 'a copy but plagiarism.
means that they have taken the original project of the Messerschmitt Me 264 and have modified and improved.

Do you ever get tired of trolling?

JG52Uther
10-01-2010, 11:47 AM
What a complete and utter moron! And his words 'this is my game,and I'd do it again' just about sums him up.

Flanker35M
10-01-2010, 12:17 PM
S!

After seeing that clip..umm..That guy should only fly model kits or something. With that kind of "expertise" he will ruin more than gain. Losing that B29 to a makeshift installation of an APU that was STILL running when not supposed to just shows the incompetency of the crew to make even basic pre-flight checks etc. Huh huh..

BG-09
10-01-2010, 12:32 PM
And the saddest part of all: when the Plexiglas round window flies away high above the ground is unbearable! Simply unbearable. Heart breaking... Total morons. And one of them said sitting in his lounge: "...It burned to the ground! ;)" I...I...I do not know what to say!!! They have to be in to the jail. For very long time!

Thunderbolt56
10-01-2010, 12:56 PM
I watched this a few years ago as well. The outcry around here for punishment is silly. Believe me, they were substantially punished both financially and emotionally.

I would have loved to see a veritable Disney happy ending with them flying into the blue back to civilization, but this bird wasn't visible or flying before any of this, so treating it as though it were a rare flyable that was enjoyed in air shows by thousands every year is ridiculous.

Personally, I'm glad there are people out there with the money and inclination to undertake such projects. Even if they succeed one in five times, that's one more bird in the fold.

swiss
10-01-2010, 01:11 PM
I watched this a few years ago as well. The outcry around here for punishment is silly. Believe me, they were substantially punished both financially and emotionally.

I would have loved to see a veritable Disney happy ending with them flying into the blue back to civilization, but this bird wasn't visible or flying before any of this, so treating it as though it were a rare flyable that was enjoyed in air shows by thousands every year is ridiculous.

Personally, I'm glad there are people out there with the money and inclination to undertake such projects. Even if they succeed one in five times, that's one more bird in the fold.

Sorry I don't agree. For the same reason ppl pay money to be put in of those cryostasis coffins.
Would go and just "have a try" if you can resurrect them even though are unsure you can make it?
NO!
See? Let the stuff were it is, it's not going to rot either, and one fine day, somebody who has the required resources available, will give it a try.

They obliviously did not have:

- enough money
- the right equipment
- basic ability of comprehensive reading
- leadership
- needed knowledge

only A LOT of dedication, but they overestimated their own capabilities even more.
Did you notice the tiny fire extinguishers?
They were not even prepared if one of the engines cached fire!

One more thing: I really tried hard, but their emotional pain didn't seem that deep... I would have freaked out so bad.

Personally, I don't need ppl like this, they generally damage more than they can save. No thx.

JVM
10-01-2010, 01:15 PM
When I read all these irate comments made undoubtly from the safety of your computer seats, I would like to point out that:

- It was 15 years agon and really warbird interested people know about that since that time...I saw the original outing of the Nova episode: I do not remember venom-laced critics like the ones I just read, and yet there had been many critics at the time

- One of the big issues (as always) was money and extreme climatic constraints: it has been very hard to gather the funds...strangely, none of the critics of the time contributed...the one who did di d not critic (at least overtly)

- In case you did not notice the real painful point is less the unfortunate loss of the Kee Bird when everything seemed ready to go but a lot more Rick Krieger the chief engineer who overworked himself to death, literally...

- Rick was a long time friend of D. Greenamyer: don't you think he is still mourning his loss? DG hesitated for a long time and decided to try to honor his memory...one can only guess th eoutcome woul dhave been different if the chief engineer (who was the project leader) had been alive

- None of us was there, and we can only guess at the state of mind of the rest of the team...hindsight is so much of a marvelous thing, isn't it?

- D. Greenamyer was not really a coming out-of-the-blue moron: Lockheed SR-71 test pilot, held the fastest piston engine speed record for 2 years (over the Messerschmitt 209!), the fastest low altitude speed record (998 mph with a NF-104, 25m high...but was forced to land without the airplane), and won the National Air Races of Reno in "unlimited" category 6 times

Granted, humility and compassion are not very common virtues in this forum, but in this thread they are downright absent...

Who was talking about morons already?

JVM

PS: The engines and wings are there in perfect state for whoever will need them...under ice water in Northern Greenland they will be still in the same shape in 200 years...

Trumper
10-01-2010, 01:19 PM
:( I wish the title could be amended,i thought something had happened to FiFi :(

Flanker35M
10-01-2010, 01:33 PM
S!

JVM, the guys for sure were on low funding, working in harsh conditions. They were also highly credited in being record holders and whatnot but still failed in one BASIC thing that requires NO MONEY, just time and patience to do: pre-flight checks to assure everything REALLY is ready. A test pilot should know this already. Now they missed that APU being a makeshift one, still running and thus caused a blaze resulting in the loss of the plane. Small errors cause big problems is a slogan used by air forces. Even the best and known ones make mistakes that can cost dearly. But again, being wise 15 years later and from armchair is useless as you said.

Flying Pencil
10-01-2010, 01:41 PM
I know the person who lead the project, that is I talked with him once on another airplane, initials of DG.

He did not strike me as a very careful person, make that more like gun ho.

And yes, that airplane he was also working on crashed and was destroyed.

Flying Pencil
10-01-2010, 01:43 PM
They obliviously did not have:

- basic ability of comprehensive reading
- leadership
- needed knowledge


Personally, I don't need ppl like this, they generally damage more than they can save. No thx.

Agree, see my previous post.

swiss
10-01-2010, 02:13 PM
When I read all these irate comments made undoubtly from the safety of your computer seats, I would like to point out that:

- It was 15 years agon and really warbird interested people know about that since that time...I saw the original outing of the Nova episode: I do not remember venom-laced critics like the ones I just read, and yet there had been many critics at the time

- One of the big issues (as always) was money and extreme climatic constraints: it has been very hard to gather the funds...strangely, none of the critics of the time contributed...the one who did di d not critic (at least overtly)

- In case you did not notice the real painful point is less the unfortunate loss of the Kee Bird when everything seemed ready to go but a lot more Rick Krieger the chief engineer who overworked himself to death, literally...

- Rick was a long time friend of D. Greenamyer: don't you think he is still mourning his loss? DG hesitated for a long time and decided to try to honor his memory...one can only guess th eoutcome woul dhave been different if the chief engineer (who was the project leader) had been alive

- None of us was there, and we can only guess at the state of mind of the rest of the team...hindsight is so much of a marvelous thing, isn't it?

- D. Greenamyer was not really a coming out-of-the-blue moron: Lockheed SR-71 test pilot, held the fastest piston engine speed record for 2 years (over the Messerschmitt 209!), the fastest low altitude speed record (998 mph with a NF-104, 25m high...but was forced to land without the airplane), and won the National Air Races of Reno in "unlimited" category 6 times

Granted, humility and compassion are not very common virtues in this forum, but in this thread they are downright absent...

Who was talking about morons already?

JVM

PS: The engines and wings are there in perfect state for whoever will need them...under ice water in Northern Greenland they will be still in the same shape in 200 years...


What do want?
Ricks death sure is tragedy - but I couldn't care less about about Greenamyer records or achievements as a pilot. He could be an astronaut for all I care. If that B29 crashed during the flight this could have been important - did you see it take off?
They either wired it wrong or didn't follow the procedures. They fucked up simple as that, no force majeur involved.
If you realize you run out of time or money during project, you have to halt it, and return once you have raised both. Don't rush - just do it right.


and the parts were above the water before, not submerged as they are now. Water is better than ice I guess. They could at least have towed the debris a few hundred yards.
But that would require fuel, a "very precious good up there". That was the first time I wondered what they are doing. If I can't even afford to let 4 engines idle for a few hours - that's sign to stop and come back one you can afford it.
Not so our record winner: way too much ambition here, he's the man, he can, yes he HAS TO do it. Uuuuh *shivers*.

I'm done here, must stop, I'm already glowing bright white again.

BLR_Tonin_fr
10-01-2010, 07:42 PM
Are you guys THAT narrow minded ?
This is so UNBELIEVABLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For Christ's sake do you even have a little compassion for at least one of these fellows ? None of all you guys would have 1 °/0000000 of the skill/guts necessary to achieve that kind of project.

All what you are goodfor is gossiping and yakking pure B/S. This is driving me nuts.

I've seen that Oleg got recently mad on the Bob's post, I seriously think that some of you guys should learn or re-learn basic respect and life rules...

Romanator21
10-01-2010, 07:51 PM
These situations are completely different. In this one, we're yaking at a guy who took on a challenge which was too great for his skill/ability/patience/etc, leading to waste of life and destruction of historical artifacts.

In that one, folks are yaking because the clouds are "too grey". Like telling Michelangelo his ceiling painting looks like a kid painted it with water-colors. Also, lives and historical treasures do not hang in the balance.

JVM
10-01-2010, 08:55 PM
Mon pauvre Tonin, c'est sans espoir...

Sven
10-01-2010, 09:56 PM
Are you guys THAT narrow minded ?
This is so UNBELIEVABLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For Christ's sake do you even have a little compassion for at least one of these fellows ? None of all you guys would have 1 °/0000000 of the skill/guts necessary to achieve that kind of project.

All what you are goodfor is gossiping and yakking pure B/S. This is driving me nuts.

I've seen that Oleg got recently mad on the Bob's post, I seriously think that some of you guys should learn or re-learn basic respect and life rules...

I see the same happening for a long long while , and it's driving me nuts too, as does Oleg. I try not to get myself involved due to the fact that it would only escalate in something bigger. It's really a shame but, well some folks just never get it. Good to see some more people sharing the same feelings.

Indeed the B29 accident was very tragic, I hope they learn from their mistakes and avoid them in the future. All that that work gone, but lets not forget all the warbirds that did survive or got fully restored and still fly today, like a P-51 Mustang I saw a couple of months ago here in Holland.

Richard
10-01-2010, 09:56 PM
I hope they'll never be able to go near an airplane restoration ever again, what a flock of amateurs, makes me sick.

Blackdog_kt
10-01-2010, 10:41 PM
About 200 years ago one of the leaders of the revolution that ended in the formation of the modern Greek state was asked about what went through their mind when starting it.
These guys were for the most part uneducated guerillas, with a few notable exceptions (eg one of them had served as an officer in the British army with units stationed in Corfu and that was about it), but they posessed some kind of folk wisdom and he managed to put it very accurately.

"When we started the revolution, we didn't know if we would manage to win. All we knew was that we felt the need to do it. It's like when a ship's captain decides to leave port with bad weather and sets sail into the storm. If he makes it and manages to make a delivery when all the other ships are moored, he can command a higher price for his goods and people will praise him for his seamanship, his skill, his daring and the fortunes he has made. If he doesn't make it and the ship sinks, then the same people will call the same captain an unskilled amateur who should have known better than to drown his sailors for no reason".

I don't know how good or bad the salvage team for this B29 was, but i think Thunderbolt has a point. They didn't pick up the Battle of Britain memorial flight Lancaster for a joyride and smashed it, depriving everyone of the joy of seeing it again. They picked up a plane nobody knew about or would dare salvage up to that point and through a combination of difficult circumstances and their own mistakes they failed. It's an inherent risk.

Maybe they wouldn't have crashed it if they were more careful, but that doesn't mean it would be parked in some museum. The most probable outcome if they really were careful would be that it would end up grounded there and then, this time in full exposure to the elements. Maybe they or someone else could have raised the money to fly it out of there after a few years, or maybe nobody would and it would rot, nobody can know for sure.

Xilon_x
10-01-2010, 11:07 PM
FAMOUS FIFI'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7OG8ta_Kw8&feature=fvw

Flying Pencil
10-01-2010, 11:47 PM
- D. Greenamyer was not really a coming out-of-the-blue moron: Lockheed SR-71 test pilot, held the fastest piston engine speed record for 2 years (over the Messerschmitt 209!), the fastest low altitude speed record (998 mph with a NF-104, 25m high...but was forced to land without the airplane), and won the National Air Races of Reno in "unlimited" category 6 times



One can be a great pilot, but a lousy project manager.
The qualities of PILOT are not the same a BUSINESS SKILL.

I PERSONALLY met D. Greenamyer on another project that ended in fiery failure, and I can tell you he did not strike me as a good manager.

He bungled the B29 recovery, they should have been ready to come back the next year and not push it.

Azimech
10-02-2010, 12:13 AM
I hope they'll never be able to go near an airplane restoration ever again, what a flock of amateurs, makes me sick.


-1

Come on! The only thing that went wrong was the APU. They've managed things most of us can only dream about!

I'm a hobby mechanic. Transformed my own car, that sort of jazz, often working in the snow on my back. I know how much work even replacing or repairing a car engine can be while your hands are numb. Doing so in such conditions is terrible. I'd want to drink a lot of alcohol just to keep me going, but working on a 50 year old a/c would be too much risk.

Yes, maybe it would've been smarter to ferry the B29 by other means, but this man apparently had his reasons. It almost worked, don't forget that. We wouldn't even got as far as replacing one engine. If you want to take off in a plane that has been stationary for 50 years in any country that has air traffic regulations, they'd tell you to completely strip the thing bare and restore it.

Flanker35M
10-02-2010, 06:57 AM
S!

Not gonna say anything about the persons involved in the B29 incident. But as it was they worked in harsh and primitive conditions. This alone enforces one rule, to be extra careful! It is different to maintain/repair a plane in the hangar than out there in the snow. People tend to make shortcuts to get into warm, tiredness makes your concentration slip etc. So here they put in an APU, but not well enough, the fittings were makeshift and hurried it seems. Now it escalated when they taxied at high speed causing jolts to the already flimsy installation. Fuel tank broke loose, spilled on APU that was running STILL even pre-flight was done..So actually the slogan "Small errors cause big problems" is very true..Here it just escalated and caused loss of a plane and a life.

In projects like these hurry and too much eagerness is your enemy and backfires for sure. A leader of this kind of project should know and make assessments of the risk and put extra attention to the work, to be done even more carefull than usual, to avoid mistakes and minimize risks to both personnel and equipment.

dduff442
10-02-2010, 11:54 AM
I'm sure they felt terrible after the plane went up in smoke. Still, if they didn't have the resources to lay out a decent runway on the ice then they didn't really have the resources to do the job. It's a pity to see such a beauty destroyed.

swiss
10-02-2010, 01:30 PM
They picked up a plane nobody knew about or would dare salvage up to that point and through a combination of difficult circumstances and their own mistakes they failed. It's an inherent risk.

Maybe they wouldn't have crashed it if they were more careful, but that doesn't mean it would be parked in some museum. The most probable outcome if they really were careful would be that it would end up grounded there and then, this time in full exposure to the elements. Maybe they or someone else could have raised the money to fly it out of there after a few years, or maybe nobody would and it would rot, nobody can know for sure.

- Ppl did know about this plane
[btw, there a Ju52, supposed to have a cargo of160mil in gold, under 30m of ice here in Switzerland...)
- It was not in danger, like being pushed out into the sea by a glacier
- nobody picked up on it because the basic plan ist to disassemble and fly out parts. That involves a shitload of money.
Therefore you just leave it there until on fine day a lunatic with enough cash shows up and does the job(...right).


What could the fate of the plane have been?
a.) Sold to private collector. Now you dont want to build a hangar for such huge bastard without it being productive.
They would use it for commercial flights, ~$400/30min per per persona.
b.) Sell it to a museum. There are enough of them who would not store it oustside.

And yes, I can give them credit for the balls to plan and raise funds for the expedition. The executive part however is different story.

Short resume: http://www.b-29s-over-korea.com/shortstories/b29-frozen.htm

I love this part:
When it landed the tires dug into the soft ground and were pulled off the rims. It took hours to dig it out, and they had no means of inflating the tires. Rick came up with a questionable solution. They would use propane gas from the camp stove to inflate them. If the wheels became too hot they would explode.



For Christ's sake do you even have a little compassion for at least one of these fellows ? None of all you guys would have 1 °/0000000 of the skill/guts necessary to achieve that kind of project.


Absolutely right!

I can only talk for myself - and I have non of that.
- I'm a tech but no aircraft tech
- I don't have the resources(I would estimate 5-8mill.)

That's why I wouldn't touch it and therefore the bird would be still there in his original condition.

swiss
10-02-2010, 01:59 PM
If you want to take off in a plane that has been stationary for 50 years in any country that has air traffic regulations, they'd tell you to completely strip the thing bare and restore it.

Right.
So was the basic plan anyway. Fly it out - to?
The FAA will to show you the finger if you ask for permission.

Maybe the next Greenland airport and disassemble it there?

Mhallie66
01-20-2013, 05:58 AM
At first I thought ..wtf, wtf, wtf...what are they doing!! Then later...oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...
..such a disappointment, such a waste!!
Who let those idiots do that???? Such a priceless machine in incompetent hands. Dear God!
I don't know what I feel more sad about...the fact that such a beautiful priceless machine is lost, or the fact that people will even do that. It was obviously liable to fail at some time in a first flight after so many years without proper maintenance...it was just very, very lucky that no one was killed.

Ohhhhhh, the lack of humanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fooooooooooooooooooooooooooools!
Someone did die during this recovery mission (and his family could argue that he was killed, but that is a personal issue) and he was my father Rick Kriege. There was also a lot of prep work done starting with a mission to find the Kee Bird in 1993; rebuilding all four engines and the avionic controls (I learned how to solder in the spring of 1994 while helping my father with the controls); and if you have ever seen B-29 Frozen in Time you should know the rest of the story.

Treetop64
01-20-2013, 03:37 PM
I'm still at a loss as to how these guys came up with the idea that they should actually start it up and attempt to fly the aircraft. What an incredibly delusional and irresponsible thing to do. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/smiley/fighting0056.gif

zipper
01-20-2013, 08:52 PM
I'm still at a loss as to how these guys came up with the idea that they should actually start it up and attempt to fly the aircraft. What an incredibly delusional and irresponsible thing to do. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/smiley/fighting0056.gif


There's really no reason to think the plane couldn't have made the flight. (I'm an aircraft mechanic and I've worked on a couple of B-29s, neither flying ;)). It had fresh engines and props, the turbo systems were basically deactivated and new control surfaces. What it boiled down to was they were flying it out that day or they had to leave it and dig it out the following summer. They were out of money, let alone over budget, so the decision was made to fly it out that day. They said they wanted 5000 ft (typical manual call out) of cleared ice even though the plane was stripped down (even the gear doors were off as they weren't going to retract the gear) and light on fuel. They only managed to get about 3500 ft cleared before they had to go and there was a slight wind blowing (I don't think they ever said how much) towards the lake (from their shore). It was decided they would takeoff into the wind requiring a turnaround on uncleared ice in the middle of the lake, which required some speed so they wouldn't get stuck. Like all other WW2 combat planes the nosewheel wasn't steerable, complicating the turnaround. Then the apu fuel tank/line came loose ...

Greenamyer hinted that in his "test run" downwind on the runway that the plane seemed to want to fly before he hit the brakes. That's the irony of the disaster. Looking at the flight manual (which lists takeoff weights only down to 90000 lbs, empty stock is 74500 lbs) it seems to me that, even with a tailwind of 15 mph, 3500 ft would have been enough for the aircraft in it's configuration (not on the charts, obviously) to get airborne (but we have no idea what power settings he was using due to engine and fuel constrictions, if any) ... and Greenamyer would have been a hero. To make the 5000 ft requirement hard it looks to me (interpolating the chart backwards as it only accounts for headwind) it seems they would have had to have a 40 mph tailwind (coincidentally making 3500 ft a requirement for heading into the wind). Looking at pics of the burning wreck there just doesn't seem to be that kind of wind at all. He just should have given it the gun straight away.

Oh, and as late as 2011 the aircraft hadn't sunk into the lake and yet no one had done anything to recover the wings or engines/props ... it seems to always come back to the money.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsfc/5687592301/

Oh, and the Caribou that was used (N124DG) is sitting derelict again (it really hasn't been in any decent shape since the early '80s) ... poor thing.

stugumby
01-20-2013, 09:34 PM
Dosnt a flyable aircraft have to have a registration and airworthyness certificate or something similar? Ownership,insurance all the regulatory rigamarole etc??

Saw this a couple of years ago and was struck by the zeal and enthusiasm but a seemingly total lack of proper resources/logistics etc, more of a bush pilot type of operation. if it would have worked and they flew it out who would have confiscated it upon landing, the faa, a foreign govt such as greenland etc? Norad on alert, fighters scrambled, who knows. But anywho a lot of talent misdirected or improperly applied thats for sure. Just like the burma spitfire project it seems.

Treetop64
01-20-2013, 10:31 PM
There's really no reason to think the plane couldn't have made the flight.

That would be agreeable if the machine was attended to properly and thoroughly, with sufficient resources. Problem is, it wasn't. As skilled as they were, these guys simply did not have the resources required to do a proper job in such a difficult environment, and they knew it from the start, but despite compounding risks they tried forcing it anyway. This may be acceptable if you're trying to get an old PT boat to run, but not for a large, complex aircraft that has been sitting idle for a half-century in a hostile environment. As tragic as it turned out, they were very fortunate things ended up the way they did, with the aircraft still on the ground.

You don't have to be a certified aircraft mechanic to see that the likelihood of an unhappy ending was high. Common sense had to prevail at some point...

MaxGunz
01-21-2013, 08:12 AM
..such a disappointment, such a waste!!
Who let those idiots do that????

Money let them do that, just like every other big useless waste.

Buster_Dee
01-21-2013, 11:43 AM
This righteous indignation gets old.

zipper
01-21-2013, 12:45 PM
That would be agreeable if the machine was attended to properly and thoroughly, with sufficient resources. Problem is, it wasn't. As skilled as they were, these guys simply did not have the resources required to do a proper job in such a difficult environment, and they knew it from the start, but despite compounding risks they tried forcing it anyway. This may be acceptable if you're trying to get an old PT boat to run, but not for a large, complex aircraft that has been sitting idle for a half-century in a hostile environment. As tragic as it turned out, they were very fortunate things ended up the way they did, with the aircraft still on the ground.

You don't have to be a certified aircraft mechanic to see that the likelihood of an unhappy ending was high. Common sense had to prevail at some point...


My point, specifically, is the problem was not with the plane, it was the operation of it over rough ice. IF the plane had left the ground it almost certainly would have flown the trip to Thule without incident. You imply that simply because the plane had been derelict for decades meant it was doomed. No less than the engines, props, fuel pumps, batteries, control surfaces and some instruments had been changed, so what was to fly could hardly be described as entirely derelict.

On a side note, I witnessed a C185 fly from central Alaska to SE Washington with the aft fuselage held on solely by five pieces of 1/8in thick one inch angle iron of random lengths between 2 1/2 and 4 1/5 feet (on the outside of the fuselage) and rudder and elevator cables. The bolts had gotten so wobbly the tail moved around several inches and the pilot had run rudder trim full nose down and still had to prop his knee behind the yoke, adjusting trim with the seat adjuster for the last 1000 miles. When the plane landed the last time the spine sagged eight inches. :grin: I've got more...