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Romanator21
01-06-2011, 01:16 AM
Is there a guide/tips available on how to use the gunsight in the new plane? :)

I have no idea what each of the angled "cursors" represent or how to use them.

EDIT - if anyone had a document stating some engine boost and rpm settings for cruise, combat, etc I would be thankful as well. :)

Romanator21
01-07-2011, 02:35 AM
I've found some Hs-129 manuals on this site.

They seem to contain the info that I want, but I don't understand German (and the Gothic font in the first one is unreadable :) )

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/other-mechanical-systems-tech/hs-129-manuals-20666.html

You have to register to download, but there are interesting images included - it's worth a look.

If anyone could translate the first one at least, I'd be grateful :D

swiss
01-07-2011, 02:44 AM
angled cursor?

convergence 700-1000m for 3.7/7.5

Romanator21
01-07-2011, 04:20 AM
That's what I use already for those big guns :)

Here are the "cursors" on the left side of the gunsight. Because they are only on the 1942 version, and not the one with the elephant-gun, I think they are an aid for bomb dropping, but I can't figure out how they're used.

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae325/rboiko1/IL-2%20Sturmovik/Untitled-1.jpg

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae325/rboiko1/IL-2%20Sturmovik/Untitled2.jpg

talonite
01-07-2011, 09:57 AM
According to the German manual you linked it's an aiming aid for level bombing depending on your flight altitude.

1st line: 10m above ground
2nd line: 50m above ground
3rd line: 100m above ground
4th line: 200m above ground

ZaltysZ
01-07-2011, 10:06 AM
At what speed?

EJGr.Ost_Caspar
01-07-2011, 10:14 AM
At what speed?

This is unfortunately not said in the manual, but the aiming device was at least modeled with correct angles, stated in that manual too.

http://en.valka.cz/files/ruffer_henschel_hs_129_foto_07_802.jpg

So I am curious if you can find out (I never seriously tried).
It should theoretically work better with 6DoF, as then you can perfectly line up your PoV with the plates. But fixed PoV should work also good enough.

JG52Uther
01-07-2011, 01:00 PM
1st line: 10m above ground ...

Thats interesting.

Sven
01-07-2011, 01:58 PM
1st line: 10m above ground ...

Thats interesting.

I think we have the same interest;) Why would one have a angle for 10 meters, when bombs apparently cannot be dropped less than 20 meters mmm...

I just drop the bombs on guess, and that usually works just fine, especially with columns of vehicles, as soon as the first vehicle passes under my nose at about 50 meters height, the AB-23 will do it's job very good.

FG28_Kodiak
01-07-2011, 06:02 PM
Easy solution ;)
Minimum height for Zünder 25 (Fuse 25) was 10m (horizontal)
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2433/handwerkzeugbombenwurf.jpg

Wutz
01-07-2011, 06:19 PM
Easy solution ;)
Minimum height for Zünder 25 (Fuse 25) was 10m (horizontal)
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2433/handwerkzeugbombenwurf.jpg
And if you look at point 25B. All purpose detonator, it says mV. 0.08sec and a bomb delay of 14sec. meaning 0.08sec to arm the bomb and 14 sec delay before she actually explodes....it also says this all purpose detonator was usuable for all land and sea targets with exception of heavyly armoured targets on land or sea.

JG52Uther
01-07-2011, 06:24 PM
This should be posted in the bomb fusing thread.

Wutz
01-07-2011, 06:28 PM
This should be posted in the bomb fusing thread.

Well I have given up there as there are too many smart Alexs that know it all, and would rather adjust than go by actual facts. As only what comes from a "offical" side is right, and the rest is just lazy and far fetched bull.....well you have read the comments.....never have I added so many in such a short time to my ignore list on any site before.

JG52Uther
01-07-2011, 06:31 PM
Well the document posted above seems to be irrefutable proof that the fusing is wrong,and the HS129 bombsight seems to back that up,perhaps now TD will reconsider for the sake of realism.

robtek
01-07-2011, 07:12 PM
The data this document shows says:
o.V. (ohne Verzögerung -> without delay) 0,08 s. Wrong -> correct 0 s.
m.V. (mit Verzögerung -> with delay) 14 s. Wrong -> correct 0,08s.

the rest, look 2 posts further :-D

While the minimum altitude is printed, the arming time isn't.
and even then, it's the ONLY proven indication, so far, that TD's generaliziced arming delay is off.

The art of reading only what suits one's agenda!

SUP / Revan
01-07-2011, 07:13 PM
Well the document posted above seems to be irrefutable proof that the fusing is wrong,and the HS129 bombsight seems to back that up,perhaps now TD will reconsider for the sake of realism.

I could not agree more with the above statement, chaps, goddamn.

JtD
01-07-2011, 07:16 PM
For crying out loud, your "irrefutable proof" is a document which you do not understand? Man, educate yourself!

0.08s is fuse delay in the mode "m.V." - that's a delay you need for instance if you want a bomb to explode inside a house, behind armour or something like that.
14s is fuse delay in the mode "Vz" - that's a bomb delay that allows the plane to clear of the bomb before it explodes.
There's also the mode "o.V." - that's without any delay, instant action.

The arming times for the ELAZ 25B were
0.8-1.7s in the mode "Vz"
5.6-10.4s in the mode "m.V."
3.0-6.9s in the mode "o.V"
where the time range within each setting is due to the characteristics of the individual fuse, some being quicker to arm, some slower. If you do not give the bomb the maximum time to arm, you are risking duds, if you're not giving it the minimum time to arm, it will be a dud.

The minimum release altitude for the 25B fuse is also listed and given with 12m, that's for the "Vz" mode.

For those interested,
"o.V." - "ohne Verzögerung" - "without delay"
"m.V" - "mit Verzögerung" - "with delay"
"Vz" - "Verzug" - "delay" (but another word)

These settings could be chosen at the ZSK, the bomb arming apparatus installed in the aircraft, prior to dropping the bombs.

Romanator21
01-07-2011, 07:26 PM
Thanks for the help with the documents Talonite.

I ran some tests, however, and the aiming guides don't seem to work as advertised :)

Dropping from 50 meters using the second indicator from the top works almost perfectly.

However, dropping from 100 meters, I had to use an area between the 3rd and 4th indicators.

From 100 meters, using the 3rd indicator led to the bombs falling short. The same occured at 200 using the 4th indicator.

All drops were done at almost exactly 300 kph, straight and level.

I don't know what the reason for the differences could be, but for now, I think I'll stick to dropping from 50-100 meters.

SUP / Revan
01-07-2011, 07:28 PM
Man, educate yourself!

Et tut Uns leid, unsere Deutschekentnisse ist leider nicht genug, ein so fachspezifisches Dokument zu ubersetzen. ;)

plus I got nothing but the cutposted above, still it's rather worth an official reconsideration about the minimal dropping heights

talonite
01-07-2011, 10:47 PM
I just drop the bombs on guess, and that usually works just fine, especially with columns of vehicles, as soon as the first vehicle passes under my nose at about 50 meters height, the AB-23 will do it's job very good.
Keep in mind, according to the manual, cluster bombs are not to be released lower than 200m above target.

Sven
01-07-2011, 10:56 PM
Keep in mind, according to the manual, cluster bombs are not to be released lower than 200m above target.

But I don't keep to the manual you see, I create my own manual;) , nah seriously, 200 meters guarantees hits on at least 1 target, but I think it's still to spread out, 50 to a 100 is good for tight moving columns after having made some 15 sorties with the Henschel online over enemy targets.

swiss
01-08-2011, 02:51 AM
Keep in mind, according to the manual, cluster bombs are not to be released lower than 200m above target.

(german-)cluster bombs are a waste of time anyway. ;)

ZaltysZ
01-08-2011, 09:57 AM
Thanks for the help with the documents Talonite.

I ran some tests, however, and the aiming guides don't seem to work as advertised :)

Dropping from 50 meters using the second indicator from the top works almost perfectly.

However, dropping from 100 meters, I had to use an area between the 3rd and 4th indicators.

From 100 meters, using the 3rd indicator led to the bombs falling short. The same occured at 200 using the 4th indicator.

All drops were done at almost exactly 300 kph, straight and level.

I don't know what the reason for the differences could be, but for now, I think I'll stick to dropping from 50-100 meters.

Without 6DOF, all plates (maybe except 50m one) are misaligned with your line of sight. Although misalignment may look minor, it translates to not so small error.

Wutz
01-08-2011, 11:58 AM
(german-)cluster bombs are a waste of time anyway. ;)

Really now? How often have you used them?
If used properly they are devastating!
The cluster bombs used at high level are ideal for clearing enemy air bases in almost one sweep!
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/bild8as3.jpg

Sven
01-08-2011, 12:54 PM
Really now? How often have you used them?
If used properly they are devastating!
The cluster bombs used at high level are ideal for clearing enemy air bases in almost one sweep!


It is a fact that Russian ones in the game are better somehow, but the new AB/23 certainly does do it´s job good for the low level attacks!

One question though, and I've always wondered why, if you drop a big AB bomb, what the heck are those weird smoke plume thingies which litter the battlefield? Almost looks like a gas attack from the WW1

Wutz
01-08-2011, 01:05 PM
It is a fact that Russian ones in the game are better somehow, but the new AB/23 certainly does do it´s job good for the low level attacks!

One question though, and I've always wondered why, if you drop a big AB bomb, what the heck are those weird smoke plume thingies which litter the battlefield? Almost looks like a gas attack from the WW1
Those are small bomblets exploding, they are fairly small. I have the casing of an original here at home, it has a lenght of 17cm over all, bomb with out the rear winglets 8cm and a diameter of 6cm. They are nasty little things depending on the versions, the anti tank ones can not be defuses as they have hollow charges and extrem delicate detonators.
On my screen shot AB1000 where used.

swiss
01-08-2011, 02:38 PM
Really now? How often have you used them?
If used properly they are devastating!
The cluster bombs used at high level are ideal for clearing enemy air bases in almost one sweep!
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/bild8as3.jpg

Ok, I was talking about <AB1000. ;)
...the smaller ones really suck.

Romanator21
01-08-2011, 06:09 PM
Without 6DOF, all plates (maybe except 50m one) are misaligned with your line of sight. Although misalignment may look minor, it translates to not so small error.


Yes, that's true, and I corrected for this :) However, they still seem "off".

EJGr.Ost_Caspar
01-08-2011, 10:32 PM
Yes, that's true, and I corrected for this :) However, they still seem "off".

Just as a thought, you drop on targets, that are at true 0m ?

MadBlaster
01-09-2011, 01:45 AM
I can't translate, but noticed that Page 27 of the Hs 129A-B Abwurfwaffee.pdf you link to has these numbers listed:

10m / 85 degrees

50m / 78.5 degrees

100m / 74 degrees

200m / 68 degrees


We know with the 2 second fuse that the 10m option is a no go. But the others,
we can use bombsight table 2 to back into the required IAS. 280 kph seems to be the magic number for the rest. I haven't tested yet.

MadBlaster
01-09-2011, 02:52 AM
No joy. Did a couple tests at 200m/280kph and bombs come up short. Need to either bump up the elevations or the speeds to make the sight work.

Edit: Hi, yes. I understand them to be bombing angles for level bombing. Just need to find the TAS/elevation combinations for each angle to make it work.

Edit II: Managed to score EAD tank with the 200 meter bombing angle. Throttle at 110%. IAS around 330-350 kph. Was using 250kg and full tank gas. Target tank was at sea level. That bottom angle is a little distorted with 2DOF, so you have to take that into account.

JoeA
01-12-2011, 09:57 AM
Well the document posted above seems to be irrefutable proof that the fusing is wrong,and the HS129 bombsight seems to back that up,perhaps now TD will reconsider for the sake of realism.

No, it's not-the problem would be trying to implement something that had innumerable variations IRL.

Romanator21
01-12-2011, 08:21 PM
We know with the 2 second fuse that the 10m option is a no go. But the others,
we can use bombsight table 2 to back into the required IAS. 280 kph seems to be the magic number for the rest. I haven't tested yet.


The problem is that I was dropping bombs short when going 300 kph.

EDIT: I see you've reached that conclusion too.

Just as a thought, you drop on targets, that are at true 0m ?

The targets were at sea level, yes.

That bottom angle is a little distorted with 2DOF, so you have to take that into account.

Yes. However each of those plates is pretty long, so the distortion is quite small. You can "correct" for it: If you press shift+F1, the lowest plate lines up perfectly, but is now off-center. Pause the game. You can see where it indicates on the terrain (a tree for instance). Going back to normal view you can see that the same tree/object is now just on top of the windscreen frame.

So, rather than dropping where the distorted 4th angle indicates, I've been dropping when the targets disappear under my nose.

Even so, the bombs fly far short.

I can hit targets at 100 meters only by dropping in an area between the 3rd and 4th indicators.

At 50 meters, the second indicator works perfectly.

Celluloide
01-20-2011, 05:02 AM
Along the nice authentic manual of HS129, there is also a great book to read about HS129. It is 'HS129 Panzerjager!' by Martin Pegg published from Classic Publications.

In the Page 50, I found some useful information on the gunsight & vanes.

'This consisted of a Revi C12/C or C12/D sight, on the side of which was mounted a crude form of bombsight comprising four horizontal vanes with vertical wires passing through them. Release heights of 10, 50, 100 or 200m(33, 164, 328, 656 ft) were marked on the vanes and the pilot aimed his bombs by aligning the target with the particular vane appropriate for release altitude.'

That's all and there is no related picture or description with it. So it's a bit confusing. Which vane is for 10m? Is that top for 10m or the bottom one is for 10m? Well I don't know.
:)

robtek
01-20-2011, 06:34 AM
top vane -> 10m
bottom vane -> 200m

Avimimus
01-20-2011, 04:27 PM
Those are small bomblets exploding, they are fairly small. I have the casing of an original here at home, it has a lenght of 17cm over all, bomb with out the rear winglets 8cm and a diameter of 6cm. They are nasty little things depending on the versions, the anti tank ones can not be defuses as they have hollow charges and extrem delicate detonators.
On my screen shot AB1000 where used.

I believe that they are supposed to be incendiaries?

It would be nice to see incendiary effects improved in 4.10 (eg. The napalm effect of the M-13)

MD_Titus
01-20-2011, 06:12 PM
top vane -> 10m
bottom vane -> 200m

really? that seems counter-intuitive to me, but will give it a pop.