PDA

View Full Version : Strange archery


He111
11-24-2011, 12:35 AM
Ok, i have to ask. what's the deal with archers?

(1) Archers uphill, firing down on enemy, at long range (looks close), zero casualties ? enemy waits, still no casualties, enemy moves forward, medium range, a few casualties, enemy gets close, more casualties, archers forget to evade, archers destroyed!???

(2) Archers V pikemen, same as above except when pikemen charge, archers stand ground and destroy pikemen who are meleeing archers ???????

errr this doesn't seem right somehow.

Some good things I have noticed, units auto-face closest enemy unit!

.

Sneaksie
11-24-2011, 08:51 AM
Did you set them to auto-retreat behavior? I don't remember whether this is by default on not.
Second question - i'm not sure, will ask developers about this.

Goblin Wizard
11-24-2011, 09:17 AM
(1) Archers uphill, firing down on enemy, at long range (looks close), zero casualties ? enemy waits, still no casualties, enemy moves forward, medium range, a few casualties, enemy gets close, more casualties, archers forget to evade, archers destroyed!???
Firstly, western type of bow are really shitty in this game. It can do significant damage only at very short range against light or none armored targets. Additionally, you have to shot a unit from its rear or right side where the unit isn't protected by shield. So If you want to use archers effectively hire some Russ ones of militia or higher quality (irregulars use the same bow as all western archers).

Sneaksie
11-24-2011, 09:37 AM
Please also remember that irregular archers won't do wonders, they are not like Elven archers in Warhammer: Dark Omen at all :) Even the elite ones wont bring you victory on their own (horse archers are another story however, they can because of their mobility). However sometimes even the poorest archers give satisfactory results, try them on poorly armored militia cavalry locked in melee, for example.

To summarize, they are mainly support units that wound and sap morale greatly. In most cases enemy unit that was under fire will rout in melee quickly because of wounds and morale loss. Here each regiment has their own morale level.

Goblin Wizard
11-24-2011, 09:46 AM
However sometimes even the poorest archers give satisfactory results, try them on poorly armored militia cavalry locked in melee, for example.
Does this game has something like friendly fire?

Sneaksie
11-24-2011, 09:51 AM
(2) Archers V pikemen, same as above except when pikemen charge, archers stand ground and destroy pikemen who are meleeing archers ???????

errr this doesn't seem right somehow.

Some good things I have noticed, units auto-face closest enemy unit!

.

Please give more info, details mean everything:)

Let's assess the situation. How many archers and how many pikemen were there? I assume pikemen where under fire on their way to archers, this means they could suffer a significant morale loss.
How did archers win? Did they kill all pikemen in melee or pikemen panicked and started to run away?
What were their skills and parameters? Were they irregulars? Militia archers? Did you upgrade them before this battle?
Were any friendly units on archer flanks or rear (if they were, they gave them a morale bonus)? Did any enemy units near the pikemen panic?
If you are unsure why something happened, look at the stats panel on the left and make a screenshot if you feel that something is not right (better two screenshots, one showing stats of one regiment and another showing enemy stats). We'll try to determine what's happened :)

ThisIsRealWarfare
11-24-2011, 10:43 AM
Please also remember that irregular archers won't do wonders, they are not like Elven archers in Warhammer: Dark Omen at all :) Even the elite ones wont bring you victory on their own (horse archers are another story however, they can because of their mobility). However sometimes even the poorest archers give satisfactory results, try them on poorly armored militia cavalry locked in melee, for example.

To summarize, they are mainly support units that wound and sap morale greatly. In most cases enemy unit that was under fire will rout in melee quickly because of wounds and morale loss. Here each regiment has their own morale level.

Well, that makes sense. Archers werent elves actually, as one might think. Compared to other games, archer deals significant damage by wounding, but not killing as much. I think their arrows flies in a bit too much Slow-motion though, it looks kind of unrealistic, and basically an enemy would have had very little time of getting away from an archer volley, if seeing it from a realistic perspective. But except that, I like that they dont just massacre enemies, but rather wounds them badly, making them unable to deal much damage when in close combat.

Sneaksie
11-24-2011, 10:55 AM
Does this game has something like friendly fire?

Yes, of course, but it's tuned down. Arrows hit own troops as well, but with significantly reduced accuracy. They did this to reduce micro-management since a player usually has many other tasks to micro-manage everything and forgetting to give a stop order could lead to heavy casualties.

I believe these modifiers can be edited just like everything else if you want full FF.

Sneaksie
11-24-2011, 11:02 AM
Well, that makes sense. Archers werent elves actually, as one might think. Compared to other games, archer deals significant damage by wounding, but not killing as much.

Yes, i suppose archers will seem nerfed to TW games and especially King Arthur were they massacred everything (but they were tuned down in the patch later), but here's how they are here.
You should try a custom battle with professional or elite eastern archers or western professional crossbowmen though, they are far more dangerous.

He111
11-24-2011, 11:45 AM
hmmmm so what's the point of cheap-archers .. if no volleys will even take-out one soldier?

i understand cheap archers don't have composite bows or bodkin arrow heads, and most medieval solders have large, wooden shields ... but i would expect at least 1 casualty every 3 volleys ?? yes? or is that historically incorrect?

As to the ARchers V pikemen, 100 cheapest archers V standard size pikemen unit. ARchers fired then evaded, shotting a few charging pikemen but then archers got stuck on terrain (???) and stood and didn't evade, firing arrows at charging / reforming / advancing pikemen. Then pikemen charged into the archers which didn't flinch, just kept firing into pikemen who fell like flies .. who paniced, then ran. It gives the impression the archers knew the pikemen were about to run ... i didn't see it.

Can I hide archers in trees? will the enemy see them? how can I tell?

.

Grim.Reaper
11-24-2011, 11:26 PM
I also commented about this over at Wargamer.com. In one battle, I had 2 archer units on the top of a hill, with a single calvary unit very close to me but stationary. I opened fire with volley after volley of arrows, and not a single death. This was going on for minutes. Then their infantry came at me. Same thing. Volley after volley with not a single casulaty.

I don't care if I have the worst archers and they have the best armor, I should at least get lucky with killing some, especially after I hit them time after time.

Mitra had me do a 1-1 battle to test it. When I did that, I did see some casualties, but still seemed way too little. I had units right in front of me, getting hit by volley after volley. Some did die, but at the rate and distance I was hitting them, a lot more should have been dead.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want archers to become super units, but they don't seem to do much. However, I did notice in the 1-1 that they would become wounder quite a bit.

Piemaster
11-25-2011, 09:56 AM
I only use crossbows and I have noticed that the enemy die exponentially (slowly at first, but then die faster and faster) when they have several units of crossbows shooting them all at once. I suggest having multiple units of archers/ranged focus on a single unit, that way you can take them down faster.

Grim.Reaper
11-25-2011, 10:01 AM
I only use crossbows and I have noticed that the enemy die exponentially (slowly at first, but then die faster and faster) when they have several units of crossbows shooting them all at once. I suggest having multiple units of archers/ranged focus on a single unit, that way you can take them down faster.

As stated in my example, I did have 2 archer units attacking the same unit. My units were archers so maybe crossbows are stronger.

Piemaster
11-25-2011, 10:12 AM
You should test crossbows for this, most likely they are more powerful than the bows. I have also heard that the western archers are crummy in general, whether this is true or not I'm not certain.

Grim.Reaper
11-25-2011, 10:15 AM
You should test crossbows for this, most likely they are more powerful than the bows. I have also heard that the western archers are crummy in general, whether this is true or not I'm not certain.

Even if I test this wont change the fact the archers are weak. Don't get me wrong, I don't want my archers to kill everything on sight, but if I have 2 units on the top of a hill shooting at a stationary target, some better die. I could have the worst archers and my enemy the best units, but showering them with 100's of arrows better kill some of them even if with just lucky shots.

Goblin Wizard
11-25-2011, 11:41 AM
Some facts about arrow script:
(..\data\aix\weapon\inf.g1.archer.arrow.static\inf .g1.archer.arrow.static.aix)

Each soldier has 24 HP.

Types of arrow damage:
= ;const DeadDamage = 24;

= ;const HardDamage = 12;

= ;const LiteDamage = 4;

An example of damage probability with western bow against unarmored target:
= ; if Distance < 5 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 9 then HPDec := DeadDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 11 then HPDec := HardDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 12 then HPDec := LiteDamage;

= ; end


= ; if Distance < 45 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 3 then HPDec := DeadDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 6 then HPDec := HardDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 8 then HPDec := LiteDamage;

= ; end


= ; if Distance < 95 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 2 then HPDec := HardDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 4 then HPDec := LiteDamage;

= ; end

= ; if Distance < 100 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 2 then HPDec := LiteDamage;

= ; end

As you noticed there is no chance to kill a soldier in one shot (no possibility of dealing DeadDamage) at long range. If distance is greater that 94 meters you need 6 successful hits to kill a soldier! Even at medium range like 45 meters chance of dealing DeadDamage is very low. And all of this is against unarmored target!

Some examples of crossbow damage (xbow against 0 armor):

= ; if Distance < 5 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 10 then HPDec := DeadDamage

= ; else

= ; HPDec := HardDamage;

= ; end

= ; if Distance < 40 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 6 then HPDec := DeadDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 7 then HPDec := HardDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 9 then HPDec := LiteDamage;

= ; end

= ; if Distance < 100 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 3 then HPDec := DeadDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 4 then HPDec := HardDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 6 then HPDec := LiteDamage;

= ; end

As you can see xbow is absolutely deadly at short range. Nearly every bolt kills. Of course at long range xbow is not so deadly but still has a chance of insta kill (unarmored target).
So If you don't like dev's archery system you can easily change it yourself.

Grim.Reaper
11-25-2011, 11:46 AM
I don't doubt and have never doubted that is how the developer's scripted it since that is what is happening in the game, I am questioning whether that is accurate or not. Sure, I could update the scripts myself, but that is not something I really want to do for games I buy.

I don't know the precise distance between my units, but visually seemed very close and I was on top of a hill looking down. It would seem there would be some additional advantage for that as well.

ThisIsRealWarfare
11-25-2011, 03:36 PM
I don't doubt and have never doubted that is how the developer's scripted it since that is what is happening in the game, I am questioning whether that is accurate or not. Sure, I could update the scripts myself, but that is not something I really want to do for games I buy.

I don't know the precise distance between my units, but visually seemed very close and I was on top of a hill looking down. It would seem there would be some additional advantage for that as well.

Go for changing yourself. They might patch it, but if you prefer a quick fix of it, go for the scripts ;)
I will absolutely do that myself. Thank you very much Goblin Wizard for the scripts!

ThisIsRealWarfare
11-25-2011, 03:56 PM
Goblin Wizard, I was wondering, as you seem to know about scripts and stuff: Do you possibly know how to change camera strafing? You've probably read what I said in other posts, (Camera wont strafe oblique, so it takes way longer time to get where you want, it's ineffective.. and so on), It'd be really grateful. :)

Grim.Reaper
11-25-2011, 04:05 PM
Go for changing yourself. They might patch it, but if you prefer a quick fix of it, go for the scripts ;)
I will absolutely do that myself. Thank you very much Goblin Wizard for the scripts!

I am staying strong to see if the developers correct, unless somehow this is really historically accurate:) Let me know how things work out for you.

ThisIsRealWarfare
11-25-2011, 04:15 PM
Does anybody know which tools are needed in order to open the files? (Aix files)
I've no idea, already been looking around but I cant find them :(

Goblin Wizard
11-25-2011, 04:17 PM
Goblin Wizard, I was wondering, as you seem to know about scripts and stuff: Do you possibly know how to change camera strafing? You've probably read what I said in other posts, (Camera wont strafe oblique, so it takes way longer time to get where you want, it's ineffective.. and so on), It'd be really grateful. :)
I've tried to do this but till now no success. If I figure it out I let you know.

ThisIsRealWarfare
11-25-2011, 04:19 PM
Wow thanks. =) Really appreciated. But do you know how to open those aix files for the archery? I dont seem to have the tools for :confused:

Grim.Reaper
11-25-2011, 04:27 PM
Wow thanks. =) Really appreciated. But do you know how to open those aix files for the archery? I dont seem to have the tools for :confused:

I can just open them in notepad. Not sure if that is right or not.

mitra
11-25-2011, 04:29 PM
I don't doubt and have never doubted that is how the developer's scripted it since that is what is happening in the game, I am questioning whether that is accurate or not. Sure, I could update the scripts myself, but that is not something I really want to do for games I buy.

I don't know the precise distance between my units, but visually seemed very close and I was on top of a hill looking down. It would seem there would be some additional advantage for that as well.

You must see the efficiency of irregulars archers in term of battle economy, also if in multiplayer is more clear: they are many for single unit and they are cheaper. With the cost of a single elite archer or horse archer I can take 9 irregular archers. When i use them in battle I never make 1 to 1 shoot but I concentrate the fire of 4-5 units on a single target (especially if unarmoured): this mean salvos of 400-500 arrows on a single target of 100-200 men. This mean at medium range a wounded can be hit also two or three times: this create three penalties: woundeds, deads, heavy arrows rain. after two or three salvos a unarmoured unit can start to blink white, causing moral penalties also to near units.
Western archers are also the only weapons to oppose to light horse archers, because these one have more arrows than foot archers and crossbowmen load too slow, so a good players can be out of range much before the crossbow is loaded. Irregular compensate with number and rapidity.

FOr make a comparison: at Crecy the english bownmen launch near a million of arrows during the battle, but the bigger part of losses was caused by close combat. At Agincourtn the arrows create chaos and woundeds but the knights dead in the initial charge were only 3.

Elite archers are yes destructives but only 50 for units and very expensives, you can take them only if your penalize your heavy infantry or heavy cavalry.

Goblin Wizard
11-25-2011, 04:31 PM
Wow thanks. =) Really appreciated. But do you know how to open those aix files for the archery? I dont seem to have the tools for :confused:
aix files are just common txt files so you can edit them even in notepad. But I suggest "editoraix" from the modding tools (link posted by mitra here (http://www.strategygamesitalia.eu/real-warfare-guide-modding-tools-t1791.html)). It has syntax highlightening and divides rather long file into subsections. btw "editoraix" is built in editor you've got with the game.

Goblin Wizard
11-25-2011, 05:11 PM
mitra would you be so kind to ask devs about this variable:
= ;var ZoneType : Integer = 0; // 34) Тип зоны расположения отряда [0..9]
This is only info I've found. AFAIK it's about terrain type where a unit stands. It has an influence on all ranged units and their targets. I'd like to know which number in 0-9 range represents which terrain?

mitra
11-25-2011, 05:36 PM
I have it in russian (google translator after but is not clear what is the better translation of second word), perhaps Sneaksie can give us the better translation

"
1 Редкий лес, Первый промежуток
2 Редкий лес, Второй промежуток
3 Редкий лес, Третий промежуток
4 Средний лес, Первый промежуток
5 Средний лес, Второй промежуток
6 Средний лес, Третий промежуток
7 Густой лес, Первый промежуток
8 Густой лес, Второй промежуток
9 Густой лес, Третий промежуток
"

"
1 A rare wood, the first interval
2 rare wood, the second interval
3 Rare woods, third interval
4 Average forest, the first interval
5 Average forest, second interval
6 Average forest, the third interval
7 The dense forest, the first interval
8 thick forest, the second interval
9 Thick forest, the third interval
"

Goblin Wizard
11-25-2011, 05:54 PM
Thx a lot! These 3 kinds of "interval" are still unknown to me but at least I know it's about forests.

Sneaksie
11-25-2011, 06:30 PM
The translation is literally correct (sparse forest is better than 'rare' one though), i'm not sure what these intervals mean.

mitra
11-25-2011, 07:42 PM
perahps different levels of density

He111
11-26-2011, 11:02 AM
Some facts about arrow script:
(..\data\aix\weapon\inf.g1.archer.arrow.static\inf .g1.archer.arrow.static.aix)

Each soldier has 24 HP.

Types of arrow damage:
= ;const DeadDamage = 24;

= ;const HardDamage = 12;

= ;const LiteDamage = 4;

An example of damage probability with western bow against unarmored target:
= ; if Distance < 5 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 9 then HPDec := DeadDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 11 then HPDec := HardDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 12 then HPDec := LiteDamage;

= ; end


= ; if Distance < 45 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 3 then HPDec := DeadDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 6 then HPDec := HardDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 8 then HPDec := LiteDamage;

= ; end


= ; if Distance < 95 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 2 then HPDec := HardDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 4 then HPDec := LiteDamage;

= ; end

= ; if Distance < 100 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 2 then HPDec := LiteDamage;

= ; end

As you noticed there is no chance to kill a soldier in one shot (no possibility of dealing DeadDamage) at long range. If distance is greater that 94 meters you need 6 successful hits to kill a soldier! Even at medium range like 45 meters chance of dealing DeadDamage is very low. And all of this is against unarmored target!

Some examples of crossbow damage (xbow against 0 armor):

= ; if Distance < 5 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 10 then HPDec := DeadDamage

= ; else

= ; HPDec := HardDamage;

= ; end

= ; if Distance < 40 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 6 then HPDec := DeadDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 7 then HPDec := HardDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 9 then HPDec := LiteDamage;

= ; end

= ; if Distance < 100 then

= ; begin

= ; if CubeRes <= 3 then HPDec := DeadDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 4 then HPDec := HardDamage

= ; else

= ; if CubeRes <= 6 then HPDec := LiteDamage;

= ; end

As you can see xbow is absolutely deadly at short range. Nearly every bolt kills. Of course at long range xbow is not so deadly but still has a chance of insta kill (unarmored target).
So If you don't like dev's archery system you can easily change it yourself.

HARD CODING!!! YOU MUST BE JOKING!!! :eek: .. With nested IFs!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

You cannot be serious.

--- additional ---

Ooopss, sorry , it's a script not source code

.