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-   -   Strange archery (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=28035)

He111 11-23-2011 11:35 PM

Strange archery
 
Ok, i have to ask. what's the deal with archers?

(1) Archers uphill, firing down on enemy, at long range (looks close), zero casualties ? enemy waits, still no casualties, enemy moves forward, medium range, a few casualties, enemy gets close, more casualties, archers forget to evade, archers destroyed!???

(2) Archers V pikemen, same as above except when pikemen charge, archers stand ground and destroy pikemen who are meleeing archers ???????

errr this doesn't seem right somehow.

Some good things I have noticed, units auto-face closest enemy unit!

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Sneaksie 11-24-2011 07:51 AM

Did you set them to auto-retreat behavior? I don't remember whether this is by default on not.
Second question - i'm not sure, will ask developers about this.

Goblin Wizard 11-24-2011 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by He111 (Post 364004)
(1) Archers uphill, firing down on enemy, at long range (looks close), zero casualties ? enemy waits, still no casualties, enemy moves forward, medium range, a few casualties, enemy gets close, more casualties, archers forget to evade, archers destroyed!???

Firstly, western type of bow are really shitty in this game. It can do significant damage only at very short range against light or none armored targets. Additionally, you have to shot a unit from its rear or right side where the unit isn't protected by shield. So If you want to use archers effectively hire some Russ ones of militia or higher quality (irregulars use the same bow as all western archers).

Sneaksie 11-24-2011 08:37 AM

Please also remember that irregular archers won't do wonders, they are not like Elven archers in Warhammer: Dark Omen at all :) Even the elite ones wont bring you victory on their own (horse archers are another story however, they can because of their mobility). However sometimes even the poorest archers give satisfactory results, try them on poorly armored militia cavalry locked in melee, for example.

To summarize, they are mainly support units that wound and sap morale greatly. In most cases enemy unit that was under fire will rout in melee quickly because of wounds and morale loss. Here each regiment has their own morale level.

Goblin Wizard 11-24-2011 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneaksie (Post 364074)
However sometimes even the poorest archers give satisfactory results, try them on poorly armored militia cavalry locked in melee, for example.

Does this game has something like friendly fire?

Sneaksie 11-24-2011 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by He111 (Post 364004)
(2) Archers V pikemen, same as above except when pikemen charge, archers stand ground and destroy pikemen who are meleeing archers ???????

errr this doesn't seem right somehow.

Some good things I have noticed, units auto-face closest enemy unit!

.

Please give more info, details mean everything:)

Let's assess the situation. How many archers and how many pikemen were there? I assume pikemen where under fire on their way to archers, this means they could suffer a significant morale loss.
How did archers win? Did they kill all pikemen in melee or pikemen panicked and started to run away?
What were their skills and parameters? Were they irregulars? Militia archers? Did you upgrade them before this battle?
Were any friendly units on archer flanks or rear (if they were, they gave them a morale bonus)? Did any enemy units near the pikemen panic?
If you are unsure why something happened, look at the stats panel on the left and make a screenshot if you feel that something is not right (better two screenshots, one showing stats of one regiment and another showing enemy stats). We'll try to determine what's happened :)

ThisIsRealWarfare 11-24-2011 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneaksie (Post 364074)
Please also remember that irregular archers won't do wonders, they are not like Elven archers in Warhammer: Dark Omen at all :) Even the elite ones wont bring you victory on their own (horse archers are another story however, they can because of their mobility). However sometimes even the poorest archers give satisfactory results, try them on poorly armored militia cavalry locked in melee, for example.

To summarize, they are mainly support units that wound and sap morale greatly. In most cases enemy unit that was under fire will rout in melee quickly because of wounds and morale loss. Here each regiment has their own morale level.

Well, that makes sense. Archers werent elves actually, as one might think. Compared to other games, archer deals significant damage by wounding, but not killing as much. I think their arrows flies in a bit too much Slow-motion though, it looks kind of unrealistic, and basically an enemy would have had very little time of getting away from an archer volley, if seeing it from a realistic perspective. But except that, I like that they dont just massacre enemies, but rather wounds them badly, making them unable to deal much damage when in close combat.

Sneaksie 11-24-2011 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goblin Wizard (Post 364075)
Does this game has something like friendly fire?

Yes, of course, but it's tuned down. Arrows hit own troops as well, but with significantly reduced accuracy. They did this to reduce micro-management since a player usually has many other tasks to micro-manage everything and forgetting to give a stop order could lead to heavy casualties.

I believe these modifiers can be edited just like everything else if you want full FF.

Sneaksie 11-24-2011 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThisIsRealWarfare (Post 364086)
Well, that makes sense. Archers werent elves actually, as one might think. Compared to other games, archer deals significant damage by wounding, but not killing as much.

Yes, i suppose archers will seem nerfed to TW games and especially King Arthur were they massacred everything (but they were tuned down in the patch later), but here's how they are here.
You should try a custom battle with professional or elite eastern archers or western professional crossbowmen though, they are far more dangerous.

He111 11-24-2011 10:45 AM

hmmmm so what's the point of cheap-archers .. if no volleys will even take-out one soldier?

i understand cheap archers don't have composite bows or bodkin arrow heads, and most medieval solders have large, wooden shields ... but i would expect at least 1 casualty every 3 volleys ?? yes? or is that historically incorrect?

As to the ARchers V pikemen, 100 cheapest archers V standard size pikemen unit. ARchers fired then evaded, shotting a few charging pikemen but then archers got stuck on terrain (???) and stood and didn't evade, firing arrows at charging / reforming / advancing pikemen. Then pikemen charged into the archers which didn't flinch, just kept firing into pikemen who fell like flies .. who paniced, then ran. It gives the impression the archers knew the pikemen were about to run ... i didn't see it.

Can I hide archers in trees? will the enemy see them? how can I tell?

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