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-   -   Luftwaffe bombers (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=38710)

gaunt1 02-15-2013 01:30 PM

Luftwaffe bombers
 
As the japanese, I think germans also lack bombers, especially later ones.
True, we already have lots of models, Ju-87, Ju-88, He-111, Do-217. But, most of them are early war planes.

So this is what I suggest:

Absolutely needed, and not so hard to make:

He-111:
H11, OR preferably a H16. By 1943, most of the He-111s were from these variants, either new or rebuilt. I'd also suggest to take a look at this pack. http://forum.aviaskins.com/showthread.php?t=1471&page=5 The author did a good job to upgrade the existing variants, maybe adding a later H6 with C1 stand would be useful too.

Ju-88:
A14, a dive bomber, mainly used in anti shipping role in the mediterranean and english channel theatre, but also used on the eastern front (KG51 for example)
C6a. a Zersörer, but as far as I know, there is a cockpit done, would be a shame to let it fade into oblivion.

Would be great, but may be hard to make:

Do-217:
Maybe it was the best bomber of LW, too bad its quite overlooked.

Manuals on Pg 3!

K1, already ingame, only needs a cockpit. Dont know how good is this one http://forum.aviaskins.com/showthread.php?t=2744, but still better than the stock He-111 cockpit.
M1, same as the K1, except DB603 engines. One of the fastest in its class.

E2/E4, early variants, but still with great performance and heavy bomb load. There are lots of original documentation available on the net, with lots of useful pictures of its cockpit.

He-177:
Fortunately WIP :)

Ju-188:
Not that important as the planes above, but was still widely used, although only on the channel front. So maybe pointless to make.

Me-410:
Yes, I know its a heavy fighter/zerstörer, but was also used as a bomber, by KG2.

KG26_Alpha 02-15-2013 02:12 PM

I asked Oleg for more bomber variants years ago, the response was along the lines of as they are not popular so no need for them.
..........................^^^..................... .....
I hope this is not the Modus Operandi of DT :)

D 17
D 217

Some decent Ju88 skins here also.
http://www.adlerhorst-hangar.com/ju88.html

Problem is unless they are a straight forward conversion FM/DM from existing models I cant see them getting in if they need a complete new aircraft

Nil 02-15-2013 02:55 PM

I agree with you Gaunt1
As a consequence, Being a bomber pilot in the late war is actually very disavantaged because of we tend to use early/mid war bombers which are completely exposed to fighters due to their speed and weak defensive weapons.

KG26_Alpha 02-15-2013 05:57 PM

Also a rework of the JU88 lower gunner is needed it's almost useless with the poor views in the current model.

gaunt1 02-16-2013 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha (Post 497502)
Also a rework of the JU88 lower gunner is needed it's almost useless with the poor views in the current model.

Agree, but the B-stand is even worse, you can move the MG only a few degrees, then the camera isnt following the crosshair, so aiming is impossible.

IceFire 02-16-2013 12:50 PM

Bombers are a lot of work which is one of the reasons why we see more fighters but... seeing as I love mud moving myself... I can see two on the list above rapidly rising to the top.

The Do217 and the Me410. Reason being is high degree of use and high degrees of flexibility.

The Me410A and B with a couple of sub variants including the bomber and destroyer variants would be perfect... gives us a late war heavy fighter, important aircraft in bomber interception, and a strike bomber all in one effort. It was fairly widely used on both East and West and depending on the effort involved... the Me210 was even involved in North Africa.

The Do217 is the same thing. Used widely across all theatres, capable of carrying and being configured in a number of different ways. It can be modified to night interceptor, bomber, guided missile carrier, etc. Best of all it's already modelled externally.

I can see both of those going very far.

The He177 is completely fascinating and possibly one of the most advanced bombers (next to the B-29) but the only problem is its limited use and scope in the war. If it arrived as a fully flyable... I'd have no arguments but if it was a choice between types then I'd rather the Do217 get the attention. Too pragmatic? :)

hafu1939 02-16-2013 07:03 PM

Not only later Luftwaffe bombers are missing in Il 2 now. A bomber plane, which is absolutely essential for the period before and in the first years of war, is Dornier Do 17. The Do 17Z-0 and Do 17Z-2 already exist as mods. What about adopting these in the next version?

majorfailure 02-16-2013 07:47 PM

IceFire,

couldn't have put it better.

And I think it will not be possible because it's against TD policy -but as bombers are such massive work with all of their stations - would it be possible to get some more bombers in the game where only pilot and bombardiers position are playable thus requiring less work?
I mean high-quality pits for gunners are nice - but honestly how much time do players really use them - I bet most of the time is spent in the "important" positions.

gaunt1 02-16-2013 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hafu1939 (Post 497574)
Not only later Luftwaffe bombers are missing in Il 2 now. A bomber plane, which is absolutely essential for the period before and in the first years of war, is Dornier Do 17. The Do 17Z-0 and Do 17Z-2 already exist as mods. What about adopting these in the next version?

I deliberately didnt include that plane in my list. Do-17 is in CoD, so we cant have that plane in official patches. Only mods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceFire
The Me410A and B with a couple of sub variants including the bomber and destroyer variants would be perfect... gives us a late war heavy fighter, important aircraft in bomber interception, and a strike bomber all in one effort. It was fairly widely used on both East and West and depending on the effort involved... the Me210 was even involved in North Africa.

The Do217 is the same thing. Used widely across all theatres, capable of carrying and being configured in a number of different ways. It can be modified to night interceptor, bomber, guided missile carrier, etc. Best of all it's already modelled externally.

completely agree with you. A Me-410 would be awesome, even without player controlled rear guns.
A flyable Do-217 would be also great in the game, especially if the M1 (K1 with DB603) and the earlier E2/E4 would be included too. Although the K/M variants were better, but personally I like the E much more. It could perform dive bomber missions (E2) too, and the had much heavier forward firing firepower than the K/M, a flexible MG-FF and a fixed MG151/20 (E2) or MG-131 + MG151/20 (E4). There are also much more documentation available for the E2/4, although I dont know if they are still available or not. But I would upload them gladly if somone needs them...
Regarding night fighter variants, (J/N) those wouldnt be useful at all in the game, even if we would have radar systems modeled. They were very very bad planes, pilots hated them. They were probably the worst night fighters of the war, their flight performance was actually worse than the bomber variants! Plus relatively few were built.

IceFire 02-16-2013 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaunt1 (Post 497583)
I deliberately didnt include that plane in my list. Do-17 is in CoD, so we cant have that plane in official patches. Only mods.



completely agree with you. A Me-410 would be awesome, even without player controlled rear guns.
A flyable Do-217 would be also great in the game, especially if the M1 (K1 with DB603) and the earlier E2/E4 would be included too. Although the K/M variants were better, but personally I like the E much more. It could perform dive bomber missions (E2) too, and the had much heavier forward firing firepower than the K/M, a flexible MG-FF and a fixed MG151/20 (E2) or MG-131 + MG151/20 (E4). There are also much more documentation available for the E2/4, although I dont know if they are still available or not. But I would upload them gladly if somone needs them...
Regarding night fighter variants, (J/N) those wouldnt be useful at all in the game, even if we would have radar systems modeled. They were very very bad planes, pilots hated them. They were probably the worst night fighters of the war, their flight performance was actually worse than the bomber variants! Plus relatively few were built.

Seems like if we had the Do217K-1/K-2 modelled internally it would be no difference to have a M-1... just engine differences.

I wouldn't completely rule out the Do17. The Wellington is also in Cliffs of Dover but it will be in 4.12... that said, the Do17 is fairly limited in use to maps and scenarios we already have. Unless I'm seriously mistaken... they had their heyday in 1940 and were replaced by other bomber types including the Do217 later on. I've done a lot of campaign scenarios now and I don't think I've ever been wanting a Do17 to fill in a gap somewhere.

Really after 1940 the usage would be Finland's 15 aircraft but I'm not sure how extensively those were used. I've read more about the Finland modification to the Ju88 that was used than the Do17.

Interesting about the Do217 and the night fighter being really bad. I didn't know that.


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