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Robo. 10-18-2012 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470348)
erm. Thants what i am saying... I just say dont make the 109 any MORE worse against the RAF planes. I did not say make it better. Better read before you comment.

Winger

No, you're saying

Quote:

109s cannot outdive
109s can hardly Outclimb
they can hardly outrun
109s can in no way outturn any allied planes
which is not entirely true unless you're doing something seriously wrong. Others said that to you already ;)

Stirwenn 10-18-2012 10:46 AM

What i learned : be careful to what you ask to devs... they can porked easyly and fast a FM !
As i am flying red, i have to relearned my plane's limits at each patch ! your 109 is quite pleasant at the moment (i have some good relax time offline on it). I guess you may not have the patience necessary to fly red.

Winger 10-18-2012 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 470356)
which is not entirely true unless you're doing something seriously wrong. Others said that to you already ;)

109s cannot outdive - A spit even dives faster than a 109. If you try to follow and gain while diving youll shred your aeilrons or elevator. I have never seen a spit fall apart from a fast dive.
109s can hardly Outclimb - you know the meaning of the word HARDLY?
they can hardly outrun - see above
109s can in no way outturn any allied planes - spits can dive with serveral hundred mph and the pull and turn on a dime wich would leave nothing but a puddle of bodyliquids in a real plane with that G-load. And while doing so they dont get the slightest Blackout. I am fine with the fact that the spit can actually outturn the BF because its a historical fact. But too much is too much. The hurri is far better modeled in this concern. And again i am fine with a better than 109 turning hurri as well. On the other hand having the hurri so closely matched to the 109 is plain wrong. The hurri was clearly inferior to the 109. Currently we have either a too good performing hurricane or a too bad operforming 109. Your choice.

Winger

macro 10-18-2012 11:55 AM

So by saying that i assume you think this is wrong. So the 109 should climb better and dive better relative to the raf performance? You really think that? It almost wrecked the game for all red pilots since uber 109 was out there. Now it no where near in favour of red like it has been for blue. Real or not. Id prefere balance over historical if it meant it being completly one sided as it has been since last patch. But thats my opinion.

Go into a dive in a spit and go ino a tight turn. You will black out. Guarantee it.

FS~looksharp 10-18-2012 12:04 PM

All I hope for, is all aircraft are to be modeled as accurately as possible to real life. after all this is a SIM and not am arcade game.

Robo. 10-18-2012 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470366)
109s cannot outdive - A spit even dives faster than a 109. If you try to follow and gain while diving youll shred your aeilrons or elevator. I have never seen a spit fall apart from a fast dive.

Have you ever tried to follow a 109 in a dive (you flying a Spitfire)? Go and try that.

FYI, structural damage occurs at cca 420mph IAS (aileron and elevators fall off) and you will lose wing if you pull too hard at that speed. Structural G limits are modelled for all a/c in the sim since the latest RC2 patch. Have a go in a Spitfire before you claim something like this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470366)
109s can hardly Outclimb - you know the meaning of the word HARDLY?

Depending on the pilot of course. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470366)
109s can in no way outturn any allied planes - spits can dive with serveral hundred mph and the pull and turn on a dime wich would leave nothing but a puddle of bodyliquids in a real plane with that G-load.

I thought you ment outrun as in horizontal flight, but nevermind. 109s are still faster FYI. The gap is smaller now as it should be (between e.g. 109E and Spit 100 octane at S/L.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470366)
And while doing so they dont get the slightest Blackout.

Again, have a go. If you pull too hard you will B/O easily. Same for every aircraft in the sim. Nice addition btw with the structural G limits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470366)
On the other hand having the hurri so closely matched to the 109 is plain wrong. The hurri was clearly inferior to the 109. Currently we have either a too good performing hurricane or a too bad operforming 109. Your choice.

Go fly a Hurricane, it is actually inferior in every aspect except for turn rate. In this RC2 it's not a flying brick anymore so that's good news. The problem with the RAF fighters is and the reason why they need even more love that except for IIa and 100 octane Hurricane, they all struggle at certain altitude and you need to fly them at lower boost to stop shaking. The 100 octane Hurricane is nice indeed but certainly not as close to the 109 as you think. The only exception is at high alt, there might be something wrong with one of them. We can't compare to other fighters due to a bug but my bet is the 109 top ceiling and high alt performance.

Winger 10-18-2012 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macro (Post 470370)
So by saying that i assume you think this is wrong. So the 109 should climb better and dive better relative to the raf performance? You really think that? It almost wrecked the game for all red pilots since uber 109 was out there. Now it no where near in favour of red like it has been for blue. Real or not. Id prefere balance over historical if it meant it being completly one sided as it has been since last patch. But thats my opinion.

Go into a dive in a spit and go ino a tight turn. You will black out. Guarantee it.

Could you please read? Quoting myself from the first Post: "...

If there is any more performancegain towards red side there wont be any fun left flying blue. Currently its bearable. Even if the last joker the blues have are their mineshells. If it goes any further the balance is broken.
So please devs: Either change both sides to the same direction so that competitive fighting remains possible or leave it be...."

Thanks

Winger

Winger 10-18-2012 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 470374)
Have you ever tried to follow a 109 in a dive (you flying a Spitfire)? Go and try that.

I tried a few times to follow a spit and shred parts of my plane off while doing so. Meanwhile the spit kept getting faster and structural integrity remained stable. No breaking off parts. FYI: My parts went missing as around 750 IAS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 470374)

I thought you ment outrun as in horizontal flight, but nevermind. 109s are still faster FYI. The gap is smaller now as it should be (between e.g. 109E and Spit 100 octane at S/L.)

I write outturn so i mean it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 470374)
Again, have a go. If you pull too hard you will B/O easily. Same for every aircraft in the sim. Nice addition btw with the structural G limits.

Its OK i know reds get blackouts too. I am not saying they shall be turning worse than 109s or pull more Gs - by no means. I just mean their G-Load can not be modelled correctly. And here i could again quote myself when i was talking of puddles in aircrafts:)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 470374)
Go fly a Hurricane, it is actually inferior in every aspect except for turn rate. In this RC2 it's not a flying brick anymore so that's good news. The problem with the RAF fighters is and the reason why they need even more love that except for IIa and 100 octane Hurricane, they all struggle at certain altitude and you need to fly them at lower boost to stop shaking. The 100 octane Hurricane is nice indeed but certainly not as close to the 109 as you think. The only exception is at high alt, there might be something wrong with one of them. We can't compare to other fighters due to a bug but my bet is the 109 top ceiling and high alt performance.

And here i can only remind on what i actually meant. Verdict of what i ve meant: If you boost any performance then ALWAYS please consider taking into account the relative performance to Blue planes. Otherwise the currently comeptitive and with that very fun gameplay could break and we may have a porked blue side gameplay.

Winger

Winger 10-18-2012 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FS~looksharp (Post 470372)
All I hope for, is all aircraft are to be modeled as accurately as possible to real life. after all this is a SIM and not am arcade game.

I would secondf that if the devs could actually model the average experiencelevel of pilots during BOB or any other WWII Battletheatre and other aspects that actually influenced the outcome of the battles. But this is a game. Every player here gets LOADS of more practice and gets to try over and over and learn from each mistake. The real pilots did one mistake and that was in most cases their last.
We PLAY A GAME. Call it sim or whatever. This always has to be taken into consideration because its essential to achieve one thing: FUN WHILE PLAYING. No matter the side.

Winger

Robo. 10-18-2012 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470376)
I tried a few times to follow a spit and shred parts of my plane off while doing so. Meanwhile the spit kept getting faster and structural integrity remained stable. No breaking off parts. FYI: My parts went missing as around 750 IAS.

You were going too fast, that is not Spitfires fault, that is yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470376)
I write outturn so i mean it.

I quoted the wrong part of your post, sorry. That reply was regarding your claim about ''hardly ourunning'' the RAF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470376)
Its OK i know reds get blackouts too. I am not saying they shall be turning worse than 109s or pull more Gs - by no means. I just mean their G-Load can not be modelled correctly. And here i could again quote myself when i was talking of puddles in aircrafts:)

You said ''And while doing so they dont get the slightest Blackout.''

Their G load is modelled correctly imho (I tested it as it's a completely new feature in this patch). You should perhaps also try it before you claim things like this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470376)
And here i can only remind on what i actually meant. Verdict of what i ve meant: If you boost any performance then ALWAYS please consider taking into account the relative performance to Blue planes. Otherwise the currently comeptitive and with that very fun gameplay could break and we may have a porked blue side gameplay.

The relative performance is actually better and closer to the historical figures than ever before. It was more broken before this patch iirc.

This is a simulator, if the 109 dominated, so please be it, I don't mind.

The devs are fixing stuff regardless of the side. They fixed stuff because it had to be fixed and 109 got some love, too - slats are much better now, fuel tank explosion has been fixed, we have got better overheating model, radiator damage is actually working. The 109 never suffered so many 'issues' as RAF, that's why they focused at fixing them. It took them 4-5 tries to get where it is now. I also hope the 109 gets proper engine with correct performance (esp. at altitude), correct ata for 601A-1 etc etc. But it has never been unflyable or plain wrong unlike the RAF fighters. Perhaps looking at the things from bigger perspective would help. ;)


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