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-   -   @Devs: Stop the Central nerfs - its enough (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=35061)

Winger 10-18-2012 07:29 AM

@Devs: Stop the Central nerfs - its enough
 
109s cannot outdive
109s can hardly Outclimb
they can hardly outrun
109s can in no way outturn any allied planes
Siince last RC the acceleration of the 109 has been DRASTICALLY reduced. Even when diving vertical it takes ages to get to 600 compared to post patch.
I think its really enough IF KEPT DOING SO ONE SIDED.

If there is any more performancegain towards red side there wont be any fun left flying blue. Currently its bearable. Even if the last joker the blues have are their mineshells. If it goes any further the balance is broken.
So please devs: Either change both sides to the same direction so that competitive fighting remains possible or leave it be.

Winger

BGs_Ricky 10-18-2012 07:44 AM

Central ? Wrong war Winger !! :-P ;)

Red Dragon-DK 10-18-2012 07:48 AM

+1

I think you are spot on mate. They did a overkill on the 109. Someone had to be sacrificed so that others could win.

CaptainDoggles 10-18-2012 07:57 AM

Don't worry, the Red guys will soon be here to say "you had it easy for a while, now you deserve to be screwed" when in fact many Blue pilots merely asked for historical performance.

Winger 10-18-2012 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGs_Ricky (Post 470315)
Central ? Wrong war Winger !! :-P ;)

Youre right. Played ROF for too long:P Thanks for correcting me:)

Winger

GraveyardJimmy 10-18-2012 08:24 AM

One thing- on ATAG yesterday you complained that the red forces don't black out. Well while being chased by 4 109s in a hurricane performing max rate turns caused my screen to black out very quickly so it certainly is possible to black out.

It also seems that the 109s armaments cause me to black out in another way (cockpit hit).

Norseman 10-18-2012 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles (Post 470320)
Don't worry, the Red guys will soon be here to say "you had it easy for a while, now you deserve to be screwed" when in fact many Blue pilots merely asked for historical performance.

-no need.. You did it, and so true..lol

~s~ ;)

Ze-Jamz 10-18-2012 08:34 AM

You know my views on the matter.. noticed a drastic change within 5 mins

David198502 10-18-2012 08:38 AM

i still ask for historical performances on both sides!

right now, as a 109pilot i have way more fun to fight allied planes than in the last year...mostly because the spitIIa was banned on the servers....
on rebka4 for example, i began to totally ignore all the RAF planes and only fought other 109s, because it really was boring to fight the far inferior spittis...

anyway, i dont feel, that the 109 is now inferiour to the spits or hurris(except maybe against the hurri at ~6000 meters, but this needs further testing on my side)

but, from now on i feel, that the devs should give the 109s definitely as much love as they did with the RAF planes...109s are still off historical performance....
there are many issues/bugs in the 109s which should have as much importance to fix as the RAF planes have.so yeah i also think that the devs should now look again it the 109s as well, and make them as close to historical performances as possible and as the engine allows.

pstyle 10-18-2012 08:39 AM

To the OP, I don't hear anyone asking for the axis aircraft to be reduced in terms of performance. Yes the advantages of the 109s are comparatively less than previous updates, but as you note it still has advantages.

109 pilots are still getting kills. Blue team numbers online are still pretty good.

I think most wlould agree that we have a relatively competitive situation right now, which is what the OP seems to be asking for.

SlipBall 10-18-2012 08:41 AM

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...-PAR116898.jpg


whats wrong

Anders_And 10-18-2012 08:46 AM

Im surprised this thread isnt locked yet... Almost every new thread has been locked or deleted last week. Or merged into invisibilty into other threads.

Winger 10-18-2012 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pstyle (Post 470329)
To the OP, I don't hear anyone asking for the axis aircraft to be reduced in terms of performance. Yes the advantages of the 109s are comparatively less than previous updates, but as you note it still has advantages.

109 pilots are still getting kills. Blue team numbers online are still pretty good.

I think most wlould agree that we have a relatively competitive situation right now, which is what the OP seems to be asking for.

Exactly.

Robo. 10-18-2012 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470309)
109s cannot outdive
109s can hardly Outclimb
they can hardly outrun
109s can in no way outturn any allied planes
Siince last RC the acceleration of the 109 has been DRASTICALLY reduced. Even when diving vertical it takes ages to get to 600 compared to post patch.
I think its really enough IF KEPT DOING SO ONE SIDED.

If there is any more performancegain towards red side there wont be any fun left flying blue. Currently its bearable. Even if the last joker the blues have are their mineshells. If it goes any further the balance is broken.
So please devs: Either change both sides to the same direction so that competitive fighting remains possible or leave it be.

Winger

I fly both sides and I would say you're very wrong in your statements. I suggest you try flying for the RAF for a while before you come up with a thread like this.

PS read what davidred has to say about RAF opposition, I happen to agree with him 100%-ly. Especially the 109 bug fixes. I agree the situation is now more balanced and more historical than ever before. And that is good, is it not?

robo.

macro 10-18-2012 09:19 AM

Idk about history but the game is more even now than its ever been. And if it went back to 109 having complete dominance like last patch then alot of reds wont bother playing anymore.

Just seems like some 109 pilots arnt happy unluss their ride outclimbs, out runs outturns out dives and out guns the enemy.

Winger 10-18-2012 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 470339)
I fly both sides and I would say you're very wrong in your statements. I suggest you try flying for the RAF for a while before you come up with a thread like this.

PS read what davidred has to say about RAF opposition, I happen to agree with him 100%-ly. Especially the 109 bug fixes. I agree the situation is now more balanced and more historical than ever before. And that is good, is it not?

robo.

erm. Thants what i am saying... I just say dont make the 109 any MORE worse against the RAF planes. I did not say make it better. Better read before you comment.

Winger

Winger 10-18-2012 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macro (Post 470345)
Idk about history but the game is more even now than its ever been. And if it went back to 109 having complete dominance like last patch then alot of reds wont bother playing anymore.

Just seems like some 109 pilots arnt happy unluss their ride outclimbs, out runs outturns out dives and out guns the enemy.

Sorry. But thats stupid. Some folks really seem to ignore what i actually wrote. And btw. WHEN did the 109 outturn ANY RAF plane... sorry, but LOL.

Winger

David198502 10-18-2012 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470350)
Sorry. But thats stupid. Some folks really seem to ignore what i actually wrote. And btw. WHEN did the 109 outturn ANY RAF plane... sorry, but LOL.

Winger

well, before the last RC2 patch the 109 did outturn the hurri!

LoBiSoMeM 10-18-2012 10:00 AM

The 109 can outrun any RAF fighter. Outclimb too, easily.

People need learn to fly. Just that.

I can shoot down 109s with "inferior" Hurricane, but if one good 109 pilot do the right thing in 1x1, he will dictate the combat: anytime he can just climb and go away...

But some bad pilots wants to lose all energy and engage "rockets" or something... please, get a grip!

Just that!

furbs 10-18-2012 10:26 AM

I dont know about the actual numbers but last night on ATAG i had a bit of height on 3 spits and i could play with them with proper BnZ tactics...i also outran them in the level after a dive.

I found the 109 to be a bit twitchy when trying scissors at low speed but apart from that i was quite happy.

Robo. 10-18-2012 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470348)
erm. Thants what i am saying... I just say dont make the 109 any MORE worse against the RAF planes. I did not say make it better. Better read before you comment.

Winger

No, you're saying

Quote:

109s cannot outdive
109s can hardly Outclimb
they can hardly outrun
109s can in no way outturn any allied planes
which is not entirely true unless you're doing something seriously wrong. Others said that to you already ;)

Stirwenn 10-18-2012 10:46 AM

What i learned : be careful to what you ask to devs... they can porked easyly and fast a FM !
As i am flying red, i have to relearned my plane's limits at each patch ! your 109 is quite pleasant at the moment (i have some good relax time offline on it). I guess you may not have the patience necessary to fly red.

Winger 10-18-2012 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 470356)
which is not entirely true unless you're doing something seriously wrong. Others said that to you already ;)

109s cannot outdive - A spit even dives faster than a 109. If you try to follow and gain while diving youll shred your aeilrons or elevator. I have never seen a spit fall apart from a fast dive.
109s can hardly Outclimb - you know the meaning of the word HARDLY?
they can hardly outrun - see above
109s can in no way outturn any allied planes - spits can dive with serveral hundred mph and the pull and turn on a dime wich would leave nothing but a puddle of bodyliquids in a real plane with that G-load. And while doing so they dont get the slightest Blackout. I am fine with the fact that the spit can actually outturn the BF because its a historical fact. But too much is too much. The hurri is far better modeled in this concern. And again i am fine with a better than 109 turning hurri as well. On the other hand having the hurri so closely matched to the 109 is plain wrong. The hurri was clearly inferior to the 109. Currently we have either a too good performing hurricane or a too bad operforming 109. Your choice.

Winger

macro 10-18-2012 11:55 AM

So by saying that i assume you think this is wrong. So the 109 should climb better and dive better relative to the raf performance? You really think that? It almost wrecked the game for all red pilots since uber 109 was out there. Now it no where near in favour of red like it has been for blue. Real or not. Id prefere balance over historical if it meant it being completly one sided as it has been since last patch. But thats my opinion.

Go into a dive in a spit and go ino a tight turn. You will black out. Guarantee it.

FS~looksharp 10-18-2012 12:04 PM

All I hope for, is all aircraft are to be modeled as accurately as possible to real life. after all this is a SIM and not am arcade game.

Robo. 10-18-2012 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470366)
109s cannot outdive - A spit even dives faster than a 109. If you try to follow and gain while diving youll shred your aeilrons or elevator. I have never seen a spit fall apart from a fast dive.

Have you ever tried to follow a 109 in a dive (you flying a Spitfire)? Go and try that.

FYI, structural damage occurs at cca 420mph IAS (aileron and elevators fall off) and you will lose wing if you pull too hard at that speed. Structural G limits are modelled for all a/c in the sim since the latest RC2 patch. Have a go in a Spitfire before you claim something like this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470366)
109s can hardly Outclimb - you know the meaning of the word HARDLY?

Depending on the pilot of course. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470366)
109s can in no way outturn any allied planes - spits can dive with serveral hundred mph and the pull and turn on a dime wich would leave nothing but a puddle of bodyliquids in a real plane with that G-load.

I thought you ment outrun as in horizontal flight, but nevermind. 109s are still faster FYI. The gap is smaller now as it should be (between e.g. 109E and Spit 100 octane at S/L.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470366)
And while doing so they dont get the slightest Blackout.

Again, have a go. If you pull too hard you will B/O easily. Same for every aircraft in the sim. Nice addition btw with the structural G limits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470366)
On the other hand having the hurri so closely matched to the 109 is plain wrong. The hurri was clearly inferior to the 109. Currently we have either a too good performing hurricane or a too bad operforming 109. Your choice.

Go fly a Hurricane, it is actually inferior in every aspect except for turn rate. In this RC2 it's not a flying brick anymore so that's good news. The problem with the RAF fighters is and the reason why they need even more love that except for IIa and 100 octane Hurricane, they all struggle at certain altitude and you need to fly them at lower boost to stop shaking. The 100 octane Hurricane is nice indeed but certainly not as close to the 109 as you think. The only exception is at high alt, there might be something wrong with one of them. We can't compare to other fighters due to a bug but my bet is the 109 top ceiling and high alt performance.

Winger 10-18-2012 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macro (Post 470370)
So by saying that i assume you think this is wrong. So the 109 should climb better and dive better relative to the raf performance? You really think that? It almost wrecked the game for all red pilots since uber 109 was out there. Now it no where near in favour of red like it has been for blue. Real or not. Id prefere balance over historical if it meant it being completly one sided as it has been since last patch. But thats my opinion.

Go into a dive in a spit and go ino a tight turn. You will black out. Guarantee it.

Could you please read? Quoting myself from the first Post: "...

If there is any more performancegain towards red side there wont be any fun left flying blue. Currently its bearable. Even if the last joker the blues have are their mineshells. If it goes any further the balance is broken.
So please devs: Either change both sides to the same direction so that competitive fighting remains possible or leave it be...."

Thanks

Winger

Winger 10-18-2012 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 470374)
Have you ever tried to follow a 109 in a dive (you flying a Spitfire)? Go and try that.

I tried a few times to follow a spit and shred parts of my plane off while doing so. Meanwhile the spit kept getting faster and structural integrity remained stable. No breaking off parts. FYI: My parts went missing as around 750 IAS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 470374)

I thought you ment outrun as in horizontal flight, but nevermind. 109s are still faster FYI. The gap is smaller now as it should be (between e.g. 109E and Spit 100 octane at S/L.)

I write outturn so i mean it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 470374)
Again, have a go. If you pull too hard you will B/O easily. Same for every aircraft in the sim. Nice addition btw with the structural G limits.

Its OK i know reds get blackouts too. I am not saying they shall be turning worse than 109s or pull more Gs - by no means. I just mean their G-Load can not be modelled correctly. And here i could again quote myself when i was talking of puddles in aircrafts:)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 470374)
Go fly a Hurricane, it is actually inferior in every aspect except for turn rate. In this RC2 it's not a flying brick anymore so that's good news. The problem with the RAF fighters is and the reason why they need even more love that except for IIa and 100 octane Hurricane, they all struggle at certain altitude and you need to fly them at lower boost to stop shaking. The 100 octane Hurricane is nice indeed but certainly not as close to the 109 as you think. The only exception is at high alt, there might be something wrong with one of them. We can't compare to other fighters due to a bug but my bet is the 109 top ceiling and high alt performance.

And here i can only remind on what i actually meant. Verdict of what i ve meant: If you boost any performance then ALWAYS please consider taking into account the relative performance to Blue planes. Otherwise the currently comeptitive and with that very fun gameplay could break and we may have a porked blue side gameplay.

Winger

Winger 10-18-2012 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FS~looksharp (Post 470372)
All I hope for, is all aircraft are to be modeled as accurately as possible to real life. after all this is a SIM and not am arcade game.

I would secondf that if the devs could actually model the average experiencelevel of pilots during BOB or any other WWII Battletheatre and other aspects that actually influenced the outcome of the battles. But this is a game. Every player here gets LOADS of more practice and gets to try over and over and learn from each mistake. The real pilots did one mistake and that was in most cases their last.
We PLAY A GAME. Call it sim or whatever. This always has to be taken into consideration because its essential to achieve one thing: FUN WHILE PLAYING. No matter the side.

Winger

Robo. 10-18-2012 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470376)
I tried a few times to follow a spit and shred parts of my plane off while doing so. Meanwhile the spit kept getting faster and structural integrity remained stable. No breaking off parts. FYI: My parts went missing as around 750 IAS.

You were going too fast, that is not Spitfires fault, that is yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470376)
I write outturn so i mean it.

I quoted the wrong part of your post, sorry. That reply was regarding your claim about ''hardly ourunning'' the RAF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470376)
Its OK i know reds get blackouts too. I am not saying they shall be turning worse than 109s or pull more Gs - by no means. I just mean their G-Load can not be modelled correctly. And here i could again quote myself when i was talking of puddles in aircrafts:)

You said ''And while doing so they dont get the slightest Blackout.''

Their G load is modelled correctly imho (I tested it as it's a completely new feature in this patch). You should perhaps also try it before you claim things like this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470376)
And here i can only remind on what i actually meant. Verdict of what i ve meant: If you boost any performance then ALWAYS please consider taking into account the relative performance to Blue planes. Otherwise the currently comeptitive and with that very fun gameplay could break and we may have a porked blue side gameplay.

The relative performance is actually better and closer to the historical figures than ever before. It was more broken before this patch iirc.

This is a simulator, if the 109 dominated, so please be it, I don't mind.

The devs are fixing stuff regardless of the side. They fixed stuff because it had to be fixed and 109 got some love, too - slats are much better now, fuel tank explosion has been fixed, we have got better overheating model, radiator damage is actually working. The 109 never suffered so many 'issues' as RAF, that's why they focused at fixing them. It took them 4-5 tries to get where it is now. I also hope the 109 gets proper engine with correct performance (esp. at altitude), correct ata for 601A-1 etc etc. But it has never been unflyable or plain wrong unlike the RAF fighters. Perhaps looking at the things from bigger perspective would help. ;)

Robo. 10-18-2012 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470379)
I would secondf that if the devs could actually model the average experiencelevel of pilots during BOB or any other WWII Battletheatre and other aspects that actually influenced the outcome of the battles. But this is a game. Every player here gets LOADS of more practice and gets to try over and over and learn from each mistake. The real pilots did one mistake and that was in most cases their last.
We PLAY A GAME. Call it sim or whatever. This always has to be taken into consideration because its essential to achieve one thing: FUN WHILE PLAYING. No matter the side.

Winger

You chose a wrong sim (or game) then. :grin:

By fun by playing you obviously mean fun by winning. If the other guys have a chance too, you complain. In the chat, on the forums...

You say no matter the side but you only know one side. You never complained about the Hurricanes being 250kg too heavy because it was fun shooting them down. I understand, everybody likes winning.

JG52Uther 10-18-2012 01:08 PM

With the latest patch I feel very safe in a 109, unless I make a mistake. I fly high, I B n Z, and if it looks like things are going wrong, I run.

I hope we never see balance in il2, only accuracy.

5./JG27.Farber 10-18-2012 01:10 PM

You can no longer afford to get hit, at all...

Winger 10-18-2012 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 470382)
You chose a wrong sim (or game) then. :grin:

By fun by playing you obviously mean fun by winning. If the other guys have a chance too, you complain. In the chat, on the forums...

You say no matter the side but you only know one side. You never complained about the Hurricanes being 250kg too heavy because it was fun shooting them down. I understand, everybody likes winning.

Sorry. You do not want to get me. I am done.

Winger

GraveyardJimmy 10-18-2012 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 470385)
You can no longer afford to get hit, at all...

I feel the same in red planes though, it's not a one side only thing. The pilot is especially vulnerable. Flying with a red screen means fighting is impossible (as it should be) and an RTB or ditch is the only solution in that case.

macro 10-18-2012 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470379)
I would secondf that if the devs could actually model the average experiencelevel of pilots during BOB or any other WWII Battletheatre and other aspects that actually influenced the outcome of the battles. But this is a game. Every player here gets LOADS of more practice and gets to try over and over and learn from each mistake. The real pilots did one mistake and that was in most cases their last.
We PLAY A GAME. Call it sim or whatever. This always has to be taken into consideration because its essential to achieve one thing: FUN WHILE PLAYING. No matter the side.

Winger

Couldnt agree more with that

Robo. 10-18-2012 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470387)
Sorry. You do not want to get me. I am done.

Winger

No, I am trying to get you... but all I see is a guy who lost some fights on ATAG and now he complains. You don't really know what flying for the 'other' side is like, yet you make ridiculous claims like 'The spitfire does not black out'.

I respect your subjective opinion as a guy who flies 109s and now he realises that with the RAF semi-fixed it won't be as easy. Fair enough. ;)

FS~looksharp 10-18-2012 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG52Uther (Post 470384)
With the latest patch I feel very safe in a 109, unless I make a mistake. I fly high, I B n Z, and if it looks like things are going wrong, I run.

I hope we never see balance in il2, only accuracy.




WELL SAID THAT MAN ~S~

IMHO, its an art to fly your aircraft to It's strengths and exploit the best out of it..


But please please please, never try and make the plane's more equal, that would be a tragedy...

In time there will be more and more servers catering for the needs of pilots... Leave it up to individual server settings to determine the realism they chose, not the sim at base level

Slipstream2012 10-18-2012 01:54 PM

Basically, you need to learn to fly your plane.

Even in the days of the uber 109, skilled red fighters could take one out, and as much as I'm sure there are a few 109 fliers that would like to BnZ under-performing planes forever, there are a lot more that appreciate the fact that the FM's now are more historically correct and there is a challenge to be had when your opponent can fight back.

I'm out-climbed by 109's all the time. I can keep with them for a while but then airspeed gets too low and I stall out.

If the Spitfire or Hurricane can out turn you, what the hell are you doing in a turn fight with them?

I can shred parts from Spitfires in a dive at the same rate that I can shred parts from a 109.

I Black/Red out many more times in a Spitfire or Hurricane than 109, because I BnZ in a 109, and turn fight in a red fighter.

Since the new patches everything has been evened out, I've seen 109's flying high, and swooping down to BnZ approaching enemies. Red fighters out-turning 109's that are stupid enough to play with them in beehives. and G.50's doing some crazy aerobatics and coming out on the tail of Red fighters.

Remember: In 3 months & 3 weeks in 1940, the few in mainly Hurricanes and a few Spitfires, faced and took down the mighty Luftwaffe in the summer skies over Southern England. History speaks for itself, if their planes were so crap, the outcome would have been totally different.

Insuber 10-18-2012 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 470385)
You can no longer afford to get hit, at all...

Yes I like it. Now when the coolant / radiator is hit my 109's fate is spelt ... which is more realistic. Before one could run indefinitely and spoil the efforts of poor reds. BUT ... it looks like it's a little bit too frequent as a damage, IMHO.

Cheers!

macro 10-18-2012 02:27 PM

Look at the profile of a 109 from behind. The rads are pretty big part of that profile. Rads are fragile for all planes. Put 1 round in and its only a matter of time not that long either. Now imagine spraying 8 machine guns or mineshells at it. I think thats pretty realistic.

David198502 10-18-2012 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG52Uther (Post 470384)

I hope we never see balance in il2, only accuracy.


+1

planespotter 10-18-2012 02:31 PM

I love my 109, like Uther, still with the latest patch. Why you try to turn fight in it I don't get. Boom, give burst of MG and MGFF, zoom out. In trouble? Dive. 109 always, still, beats RAF in a dive. You don't have altitude to dive away? That's because you tried turnfighting and lost energy and altitude duh.

109 still rocks.

http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergal...ie_revised.jpg

PS, yes i know that is not a 109e it is not a screenshot!

David198502 10-18-2012 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insuber (Post 470399)
Yes I like it. Now when the coolant / radiator is hit my 109's fate is spelt ... which is more realistic. Before one could run indefinitely and spoil the efforts of poor reds. BUT ... it looks like it's a little bit too frequent as a damage, IMHO.

Cheers!

+1 to that as well,.....its good that now radiator damage has actually a damaging effect,...but its also my opinion, that radiators are very very often damaged...i think a bit too often, as it seems not really dependent of the angles or other conditions....it just happens almost every time...

Insuber 10-18-2012 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macro (Post 470401)
Look at the profile of a 109 from behind. The rads are pretty big part of that profile. Rads are fragile for all planes. Put 1 round in and its only a matter of time not that long either. Now imagine spraying 8 machine guns or mineshells at it. I think thats pretty realistic.

I think you're mostly right. But I have the impression that rads get hit even when no .303 spraying is suffered, just stray bullets or flak shrapnels. Often the only recorded damage is in the radiator, which is quite strange. For instance I personally downed a 109 above Manston in this way, while trying the new red FMs, with only a radiator damage.

Just an impression again (but a strong one), I wouldn't put it in the bug section.

Cheers!

Winger 10-18-2012 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by planespotter (Post 470403)
I love my 109, like Uther, still with the latest patch. Why you try to turn fight in it I don't get. Boom, give burst of MG and MGFF, zoom out. In trouble? Dive. 109 always, still, beats RAF in a dive. You don't have altitude to dive away? That's because you tried turnfighting and lost energy and altitude duh.

109 still rocks.



PS, yes i know that is not a 109e it is not a screenshot!

Who said hes trying to turnfight and is complaining that he cannot win in a 109? I must have overread that.

Winger

41Sqn_Banks 10-18-2012 02:51 PM

The devs need to continue to tweak the FM balance until there is equal amount of whining from both sides.

lonewulf 10-18-2012 03:04 PM

I must agree that the performance of the 109 has been significantly reduced. Climb performance still appears to be slightly better than RAF fighters but the margin is tiny now. I have no real problem with that if the changes are historically accurate. However, what does worry me are the changes to the 109s damage model. From what I can see, almost any damage will now result in engine or control failure. Unless this is corrected, I suspect it will have a significant impact on game play. Under present circumstances, any sort of prolonged combat with allied fighters is almost certain to result is a catastrophic failure of some sort, in very short order. If this goes on I fear that combats will become much shorter and possibly less decisive in nature. Much more of the 'shoot and scoot' variety. Frankly, if that's the way it's going to be I can hardly see it resulting in an increase in player numbers.

fruitbat 10-18-2012 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks (Post 470410)
The devs need to continue to tweak the FM balance until there is equal amount of whining from both sides.

quoted for truth, lol:grin:

ATAG_Colander 10-18-2012 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks (Post 470410)
The devs need to continue to tweak the FM balance until there is equal amount of whining from both sides.

I'm thinking of adding this to my signature :grin: :grin: :grin:

ATAG_Keller 10-18-2012 03:20 PM

This RC2 patch has evened things up fairly well, but the few issues I see as a "Blue only" pilot are as follows.

-109 underperforms at high altitudes > 6000m

-The sound radar still seems to alert red pilots to a 109’s presence (I can have a spit 50m behind me and I hear nothing; my canopy is fully closed)

-Radiators on the 109 do seem fragile and seem to be the first thing to take damage

Fact of the matter is; if you’re in a 109 and you’re not above 5000m, you are not taking advantage of the main strength of your aircraft. Guys that hover over England at 2000m or lower are just asking for trouble.

notafinger! 10-18-2012 03:23 PM

The fact that performance is very close between the sides now is good but it shines a light on the cheesy little advantages that red had before that now can make a difference in the fight. 109's not getting the initial surprise because open cockpit drag is not modeled despite what the patch notes say. Being able to hear your opponent sneaking up on you is a huge advantage when you have the superoir turning ability. Spits still making high g turns with huge holes in the wings. Spit fuel tank that is impossible to ignite yet 109 burns like a tinderbox. Neither Spit or 109 was thought of as a rugged design so if 109 is going to be made of glass then it's only fair Spit should be similar.

macro 10-18-2012 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks (Post 470410)
The devs need to continue to tweak the FM balance until there is equal amount of whining from both sides.

Lol well said

Baron 10-18-2012 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notafinger! (Post 470417)
The fact that performance is very close between the sides now is good but it shines a light on the cheesy little advantages that red had before that now can make a difference in the fight. 109's not getting the initial surprise because open cockpit drag is not modeled despite what the patch notes say. Being able to hear your opponent sneaking up on you is a huge advantage when you have the superoir turning ability. Spits still making high g turns with huge holes in the wings. Spit fuel tank that is impossible to ignite yet 109 burns like a tinderbox. Neither Spit or 109 was thought of as a rugged design so if 109 is going to be made of glass then it's only fair Spit should be similar.


Shot of half of the elevator on spit and put a hole in the wing, my reward, the spit proceeded to out turn 3 109`s for another 3-5 min, partly by using the stupid "landing flaps as combat flaps" "trick" (historical accuracy my foot). God knows how many times the other 2 hit that spit, i lost count. In the end he very gracefully sailed down and belly landed, probably because he ran out of fuel.

But its all good, as long as its historically accurate there is no problem and you cant fly for sh*t. Thats how the saying goes any ways.

LoBiSoMeM 10-18-2012 03:42 PM

WWII air battles aren't stupid dogfights for nothing.

Fighters need to protect bombers, attack bomber, achieve air superiority.

If we are talking about boring and stupid dogfights over some terrain, like people love to do in some servers, maybe the blue fighters are best, but if i manage to shot down a lot of blue bombers over England with a Hurricane, and some Spits can distract the 109s doing BnZ... well, history tells the outcome...

It's a sim, not an arcade airquake. I don't lose my time chasing stupid 109s low level straffing over Hawkinge in ATAG, i chase bombers... And if some 109 pilot is happy only flying high and attacking lone Spitfires doing nothing, it's boring and does nothing to his side...

The missions itself gives more "balance" than FM.

GraveyardJimmy 10-18-2012 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoBiSoMeM (Post 470421)

The missions itself gives more "balance" than FM.

Not only that but the tactics of the players. Checking out the new Hurri FM I flew at about 16000 ft above the French coast on ATAG. Saw a group of dots moving together- oh it must be a bomber squadron. I go to have a look and find its about 4 109s of one of the JG squads, each attacked as a pair with the wingman and promptly pilot killed me after I tried circling down. I dont think they had any problem dealing with me at all...

Baron 10-18-2012 03:50 PM

I couldn't help by noticing the "4 bf 109`s" and "pilot kill" ;)

GraveyardJimmy 10-18-2012 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron (Post 470423)
I couldn't help by noticing the "4 bf 109`s" and "pilot kill" ;)

It was the first shots that hit my plane, I suffered no other damage other than coolant in the same burst, its not as if my aircraft was tanking 4 109s worth of cannon and mg shots! The whole encounter probably lasted 1 minute with them waiting for me to stop spin about then sweep in for the blast that one-shot my aircraft.

SlipBall 10-18-2012 05:37 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by GraveyardJimmy (Post 470424)
It was the first shots that hit my plane, I suffered no other damage other than coolant in the same burst, its not as if my aircraft was tanking 4 109s worth of cannon and mg shots! The whole encounter probably lasted 1 minute with them waiting for me to stop spin about then sweep in for the blast that one-shot my aircraft.


A skilled 109 pilot would be able to do that as a matter of choice. Just kill the pilot no rad damage with maybe 6or8 rounds to a Hur or a Spit1, but with later models, the pilot has much protection.

Storm of When 10-18-2012 06:40 PM

Blue pilot?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles (Post 470320)
Don't worry, the Red guys will soon be here to say "you had it easy for a while, now you deserve to be screwed" when in fact many Blue pilots merely asked for historical performance.

Whats a blue pilot, is that the pilot that joins a server with 20 reds and 40 blues yet still goes blue because he can`t be doing with having to fly the perceived inferior aircraft???. Never understood the logic of a 200 flyable`s game like IL2 and yet they`ll only fly 2 types. God help us when the Russian follow up to CloD is released, they`ll be 50 Fw`s and 109`s on ATAG and me and a few others with some semblence of fairness flying a Lagg....am I wrong???

CaptainDoggles 10-18-2012 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storm of When (Post 470457)
Whats a blue pilot, is that the pilot that joins a server with 20 reds and 40 blues yet still goes blue because he can`t be doing with having to fly the perceived inferior aircraft???. Never understood the logic of a 200 flyable`s game like IL2 and yet they`ll only fly 2 types. God help us when the Russian follow up to CloD is released, they`ll be 50 Fw`s and 109`s on ATAG and me and a few others with some semblence of fairness flying a Lagg....am I wrong???

I don't know.

If you always pick the 109E-4 even when it's 20 Red v 40 Blue then that's your choice, I guess.

*Buzzsaw* 10-18-2012 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470309)
109s cannot outdive
109s can hardly Outclimb
they can hardly outrun
109s can in no way outturn any allied planes
Winger

Salute

Please provide testing/videos which prove your claims.

In fact, the 109's previous to this series of patches had a huge performance advantage over the British planes, which was because the Spitfire and Hurricane were not achieving even 1/2 of their historical performance in the climb, and only 2/3's of their historical performance in top speed.

And to make matters worse in the previous patch, the Hurricanes were much too heavy, and the 109's could outturn them. Completely wrong. Even the German test reports, done by among others, Werner Molders, the leading Ace on the German side and the father of their tactical doctrine, on the 109's vs the Spitfire and Hurricane and Curtis H-75 were conclusive:

Quote:

Before turning fights with the Bf 109 E type, it must be noted in every case, that all three foreign planes have significantly smaller turning circles and turning times. An attack on the opponent as well as disengagement can only be accomplished on the basis of existing superiority in performance.
And this German test was against the Spitfire and Hurricane with two pitch props.

Prior to the patches, the situation was so poorly modelled in the game that even players who had poor skills, or no skills at all, could absolutely dominate in the 109's. It led to a lot of blue pilots getting bad habits, thinking they could turn and burn down on the deck, blow all their energy, and then if a Spitfire got behind them, to be able to simply pull up their nose and zoom away from any danger.

No longer. If you come over Britain, you will need to have an altitude advantage, and you will need to keep your speed up and use your climb advantage to maintain your height advantage.

This is absolutely historical. The 109's did not fly over Britain at low altitudes, they rarely came over at heights less than 20,000 up to 30,000. Only after the failure of the German day bombing campaign were the 109's assigned to the 'Tip and Run' fighter-bomber raids, those were based on surprise and evading the radar by flying low, but in fact, they suffered large casualties to the point the missions were discontinued.

Considering the fact most of the online server missions involve German bombers coming over at 15,000 ft plus, where both the Spitfire and Hurricane are both still crippled by the engine cutout bug, you should have zero difficulty in succeeding if you fly smart. On the other hand, if you drop down to the deck and wander around at low speed, you ARE going to be shot down. Quite deservedly too. :)

As it stands now, the Spitfires are still too slow in level speed, I am not making a huge fuss about this in the interests of balance, but they historically could achieve 315 mph on the deck, now they do approx. 300 mph.

The 109's are also too slow down low, (not sure about up high) and I personally would like to see them achieve 480 kph on the deck at 1.35 ata, which would put them on a par with the Spitfires for top speed.

They should not have their turn performance improved.

SNAFU 10-18-2012 07:26 PM

Wow, 7 pages! Like in the good old days.... ;)

I remember vanilla Il2 1946 maps with the Bf109E4 vs SpitVb. Great were those days and one of the best planes setups I remember. Was hard but I never had so much fun flying a 109. Maybe these days will return someday, but gues I have to wait for the Vb as adversary for a few more years. Until then I maybe learnt to fly CloD also... :-P

Ze-Jamz 10-18-2012 07:39 PM

Just sort out the FM's please Devs on both sides....This is getting boring now

I certainly wont entertain whos got the biggest **** competiton and copy n paste loads of biased rubbish from whatever side

Bloomin kingergarten in here

ATAG_Snapper 10-18-2012 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storm of When (Post 470457)
Whats a blue pilot, is that the pilot that joins a server with 20 reds and 40 blues yet still goes blue because he can`t be doing with having to fly the perceived inferior aircraft???. Never understood the logic of a 200 flyable`s game like IL2 and yet they`ll only fly 2 types. God help us when the Russian follow up to CloD is released, they`ll be 50 Fw`s and 109`s on ATAG and me and a few others with some semblence of fairness flying a Lagg....am I wrong???

You have a right to your opinion, as does the other guy who chooses to focus on mastering one aircraft type. The only "wrong" opinion is the one that belittles another's free choice.

The map on ATAG is huge, with many airfields on both sides to chose from. Forty Blues on one side vs 20 Reds on the other (or vice versa) shouldn't really matter. The action is really spread out. Too many Blues over Hawkinge? Take off from Rochester and intercept the Dorniers at 18 angels east of Calais. Odds are you won't see a single Blue fighter enroute -- although you will if you loiter amongst the AI Dorniers a bit too long.

The ATAG Server is not designed to be "fair". Nor are there any expectations that anyone fight "fair". The only thing expected is that there be no swearing, obscenities, or abuse of another player via chat or Teamspeak, and no deliberate friendly fire/fragging. Got ten 109's strafing Manston? Cool! Organize on Teamspeak to spawn together at Canterbury or Eastchurch and climb to 5 or 6 angels for some fun times at Manston. Maybe keep one or two parked at 12+ angels for the 109's that likewise stay high. Frequently there are more Reds than Blues. There is NO expectation that a player who prefers to fly his Hurricane must switch to a 109 or a Ju88 (or whatever). If he does, great. If he prefers to stick with his Hurri, fine. There is no pressure on one player to compromise his enjoyment of the game to satisfy another player's idea of what's "fair". We've had players complain that they dropped their wheels, but they still got shot down. "Unfair!" Well, we suggested to them if they really want "fair" to go see their mamas.

On ATAG, no swearing or abuse on chat & Teamspeak and no fragging. That's it. Everything else goes.

lonewulf 10-18-2012 09:27 PM

Must agree with Buzzsaw on the 109 performance issue and with ATAG_Snapper regarding pilot conduct on the ATAG server. That said, the 109 damage model is still in need of some urgent fine tuning.

Kurfürst 10-18-2012 09:37 PM

The 109s main problems is that

a) appearantly it lacks any armor protection
b) it's some 40 km/h slower on the deck than it should be
c) handling esp. stall characteristics are quite unforgiving against the real thing's rather stable nature
d) way too quick overheating since the last patch
e) the Sound Radar Exploit on the Red side.

High altitude problems seem to effect all planes.

yobnaf 10-18-2012 10:40 PM

Everything is ok. Just learn to fly the planes ! Great work. luthier + team

Robo. 10-19-2012 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurfürst (Post 470577)
The 109s main problems is that

a) appearantly it lacks any armor protection
b) it's some 40 km/h slower on the deck than it should be
c) handling esp. stall characteristics are quite unforgiving against the real thing's rather stable nature
d) way too quick overheating since the last patch
e) the Sound Radar Exploit on the Red side.

High altitude problems seem to effect all planes.

Hi Kurfurst, there is more:

f) wing too fragile (one cannon hit from another Emil = wing off)
g) Erhoehte Notleistung exploit (you can fly at 1.45ata all day)
h) wrong engine modelled with the FTH of A-1 and ata of Aa.
i) top ceiling too low (not problem of all planes, 100octane Hurricane is OK)

As for the others:

Quote:

a) appearantly it lacks any armor protection
We don't know this for sure, the headrest armour is not represented in the 3d model, otherwise I find the amounts of coolant leaks and fueltank fires pretty much OK and consistent with their position in the 3d model. If you shoot with .303s, there is usually dozens of hits on the target. I agree that RAF fuel tanks should burn easier but that's not an issue with the 109. I find the 109s DM very reasonable now and consistent with the coolant leaks and fires described by RAF attackers in their combat reports. It is also about how lucky you are, sometimes you score plenty of hits and there is nothing visible, just like in real life where 109 returned to base with 30+ holes. Sometimes one bullet can take ou out. Same thing happens when you shoot at RAF with .303s except there is never a fuel fire from the wing tanks.

Quote:

b) it's some 40 km/h slower on the deck than it should be
We can get 470-475kph IAS which is 25-30kph slower. Still not spot on but not as bad, considering that all aicraft are slower than they should be. Now they seem to be equally slower. Perhaps this has something to do with the atmosphere modelled in the game, I don't know.

Quote:

c) handling esp. stall characteristics are quite unforgiving against the real thing's rather stable nature
I love the 109 and I fly it a lot and I never had a problem with the stall. I only stall it when I make a mistake, e.g. too much foot in a maneuveur or silly stuff like high speed stall because I am greedy to get guns on that breaking fella and do too much adjustment in a short time. The slats now work almost perfectly, the 109 is nice and stable. You need to be careful in slow speed maneuveurs but she behaves well. I see lots of 109s stalling but I don't know what they're doing wrong, maybe too fast with the throttle, wrong rudder control or wrong RPM. I don't see good pilots on Repka 4 stalling at all.

Quote:

d) way too quick overheating since the last patch
I am flying the 109 at full power, both rads open, no issues. I am aware that you could do 1,35ata @ 2400U/min with slightly closed water rad in real life but considering the overheating is a bit on the aggresive side for everything (been like that since day one for RAF btw, it's relatively new for the 109), it's good enough I guess. The only weird thing on 109 is inconsistency of temperatures throughout the subvariants.

Quote:

e) the Sound Radar Exploit on the Red side.
Some players do have it, some players don't. This is an old problem since Il-2, where some players actually fiddled with the conf.ini so they could hear the engines behind them. I personally can't hear the 109 unless he shot me already and is passing over my head (that is usually slightly too late :D). I fly with canopy open at low alts because of better SA. I now pay by extra drag for this comfort. It is not right of course and should be fixed for good. But that's not something that is wrong with the 109.

Ze-Jamz 10-19-2012 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yobnaf (Post 470624)
Everything is ok. Just learn to fly the planes ! Great work. luthier + team

Post worthy of a 'well done' badge

trademe900 10-19-2012 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470309)
109s cannot outdive
109s can hardly Outclimb
they can hardly outrun
109s can in no way outturn any allied planes
Siince last RC the acceleration of the 109 has been DRASTICALLY reduced. Even when diving vertical it takes ages to get to 600 compared to post patch.
I think its really enough IF KEPT DOING SO ONE SIDED.

If there is any more performancegain towards red side there wont be any fun left flying blue. Currently its bearable. Even if the last joker the blues have are their mineshells. If it goes any further the balance is broken.
So please devs: Either change both sides to the same direction so that competitive fighting remains possible or leave it be.

Winger

You are truly a joke if you think the 109 is not competitive with hurricane or spitfire in this patch. The 109 has far better armament, can outclimb, outrun and it is not far behind in turning performance.

You must be absolutely terrible if you can't outclimb red planes in the 109, the red planes still overheat badly too and can't use high rpm at altitudes above 10k.

News for you- ENERGY ACTUALLY MATTERS NOW. Although 109 still has advantage if conditions are equal, conditions never are equal and you can't now just outclimb and outspeed red planes in any given situation now.

You will see that the good 109 pilots like Atag_David_Red will still beat good spit pilot without too much trouble. The rest of the red pilots in the meantime have had to face terrible odds, persevered and have learnt a lot.

Go learn how to fly.

David198502 10-19-2012 08:35 AM

i woudlnt attack winger in such a way like you just did trademe...dont get personal mate!

and btw, you are not completely correct with your statements....the 109 suffers in performance as well at high altitudes,...and in fact, the hurri100 octane can keep up in speeds with the 109 at ~6000meters...

and the 109 is indeed far behind in turning performance if the RAF pilot turns not like a complete idiot..then the 109 has no chance to keep up in a turn(probably correct)....

i just want to say, why attack him?although i neithe agree with his initial statements, he may just got used to the previous flight models,...and now needs to cope with the new situation....so no reason to call him a joke,terrible and tell him to learn to fly...

Winger 10-19-2012 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trademe900 (Post 470763)
You are truly a joke if you think the 109 is not competitive with hurricane or spitfire in this patch. The 109 has far better armament, can outclimb, outrun and it is not far behind in turning performance.

You must be absolutely terrible if you can't outclimb red planes in the 109, the red planes still overheat badly too and can't use high rpm at altitudes above 10k.

News for you- ENERGY ACTUALLY MATTERS NOW. Although 109 still has advantage if conditions are equal, conditions never are equal and you can't now just outclimb and outspeed red planes in any given situation now.

You will see that the good 109 pilots like Atag_David_Red will still beat good spit pilot without too much trouble. The rest of the red pilots in the meantime have had to face terrible odds, persevered and have learnt a lot.

Go learn how to fly.

GOSH. Read what ive wrote. Goddamnit and stop interpreting like you think is correct. I mean it how i wrote it.
I said with no word that i CANNOT outclimb......................
I said with no word that i cannot outrun.... In fact i wrote that the 109 IS actually competitive. Just that correcting performance even more towards "pro red" would destroy the competitive level of gameplay we have. Blue side has the slight advantage of speed and climbingperformace. While reds turn a heck of a lot better and dive as good. Its good how it is. Nothing else was my intent to say.
I know since day one of Clod that energy matters and the only tactics i use in 109 is BnZ since every other tactics is suicide in that plane. I KNOW THAT! Who the heck told you guys that i am trying to outturn and then get beating and complain. I DID NOT!!!! So why the heck do you folks imply i would?
READ man please READ PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! God my nerves....:P I should just not respond to such ignorant posts at all. Forums are my death someday:P *ommmmmmmm*:P

Winger

Pluto 10-19-2012 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470321)
Youre right. Played ROF for too long:P Thanks for correcting me:)

Winger

... me too played ROF quite long, liked your skin for the Albatros Eagle Head and "Gott mit uns" writing on the plane, nice one!
:)

Winger 10-19-2012 09:07 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pluto (Post 470776)
... me too played ROF quite long, liked your skin for the Albatros Eagle Head and "Gott mit uns" writing on the plane, nice one!
:)

Thanks. I converted the theme of my ROF skins to Clod too. I got no picture at hand currently. But i prepared for Flaming cliffs 3:):

Edit: I still go to ROF from time to time. Its a great game and if i am fed up of BnZ i go over and do some quick TnB:)

JG1Baron 10-19-2012 09:23 AM

I agree with Winger contributions. Bf-109 is worse than it should ever be - or RAF aircraft are too good. :)

Guys, it's still just a game - and Winger pointed to one of its weaknesses.

Thats all folks, have a nice day ;)

ATAG_Doc 10-19-2012 09:35 AM

Oh I was just waiting for this to happen so I brung this to the thread. http://i.imgur.com/sdzXk.jpg

Winger 10-19-2012 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG1Baron (Post 470786)
I agree with Winger contributions. Bf-109 is worse than it should ever be - or RAF aircraft are too good. :)

Guys, it's still just a game - and Winger pointed to one of its weaknesses.

Thats all folks, have a nice day ;)

Heh never thought i would ever say something like that. But you misinterpreted what i wrote too:) Maybe reread?:)

Winger

Feathered_IV 10-19-2012 09:47 AM

The reference to German aircraft as "Central". It's just toooo cute. :)

Art-J 10-19-2012 10:08 AM

OK, so what »correcting performance even more towards "pro red"« are we talking about anyway? As far as I understand, this is the last patch and current FMs ain't going to change until all these planes appear again in any of upcoming sequel projects, or until some modder cracks the damn code and God only knows when either of two is going to happen. Makes the thread a little pointless doesn't it?

Enlem 10-19-2012 10:10 AM

I totally agree with you, Winger.

JG1Baron 10-19-2012 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470792)
Heh never thought i would ever say something like that. But you misinterpreted what i wrote too:) Maybe reread?:)

Winger

lol the only thing I wrote is that I agree with you. That was the first sentence. The second sentence - my personal opinion. ;) Maybe reread? :grin:

Winger 10-19-2012 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG1Baron (Post 470827)
...Bf-109 is worse than it should ever be - or RAF aircraft are too good.

Ok got it. But the way you wrote it it can be read as if your opinion was my contribution. Well, i thinks this is a good example how forumdiscussions can quickly lead to misunderstandings.

Winger

Winger 10-19-2012 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art-J (Post 470817)
OK, so what »correcting performance even more towards "pro red"« are we talking about anyway? As far as I understand, this is the last patch and current FMs ain't going to change until all these planes appear again in any of upcoming sequel projects, or until some modder cracks the damn code and God only knows when either of two is going to happen. Makes the thread a little pointless doesn't it?

My OP was posted before the patch was final.

Winger

Ibis 10-19-2012 11:48 AM

Well ww2 was nearly called off because of bikkering between RAF and Luftwaffe over whose planes were porked.
"Give me Spitfires-they're not porked like our 109s"
"like our Spitfires are porked like isn't it, not like them 190s"

Nothing changes.

JG1Baron 10-19-2012 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 470849)
Ok got it. But the way you wrote it it can be read as if your opinion was my contribution. Well, i thinks this is a good example how forumdiscussions can quickly lead to misunderstandings.

Winger

Yes thats right.

phoenix1963 10-19-2012 12:05 PM

Collect some real evidence
 
Maybe if some of you luftwhiners got off your b'sides and did some proper testing using the tools posted by 56RAF_Klem, as he has requested in a thread, those of us on the Red side would have some sympathy!
56RAF_phoenix

Ze-Jamz 10-19-2012 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix1963 (Post 470872)
Maybe if some of you luftwhiners got off your b'sides and did some proper testing using the tools posted by 56RAF_Klem, as he has requested in a thread, those of us on the Red side would have some sympathy!
56RAF_phoenix

What you on about you fool....

We see what we see as in aircraft in front, higher etc etc...if the 109 flyers are saying it doesn't go above xxx alt then it doesn't go above that alt...if the reds are now saying the hurri and the spit can go 9k then there is a problem, a big one

Couldn't give a rats a** about using tools, were/I am interested in getting the birds close to RL performance making sure the balance is right

Stop being a troll and take both birds to alt and check it yourself...

GraveyardJimmy 10-19-2012 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ze-Jamz (Post 470877)

Couldn't give a rats a** about using tools, were/I am interested in getting the birds close to RL performance making sure the balance is right

Thats kind of the point of using tools.

Ze-Jamz 10-19-2012 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GraveyardJimmy (Post 470880)
Thats kind of the point of using tools.

Seriously? I think your missing my point...I'm not trying to prove anything I saying what I see and what I've tested and what others have tested...

Stick yer spreadsheet s ............

Ze-Jamz 10-19-2012 12:29 PM

Actually so I don't end up losing my rag and start chucking my dummy out the pram were leave it there..

If I really need to provide a nice graph and different alts n speeds obtained to prove the spit2 and hurri can go way higher than the emile in game now its best I bail now

raaaid 10-19-2012 12:52 PM

getting realistic mean sometimes spoiling all the fun

playing tnb planes against bnz planes is absolutly boring if i wanted realism i would get a paraglide and risk my neck im just after the fun

adonys 10-19-2012 12:53 PM

you all forget the biggest porking a blue side pilot has to deal with: the extremely limited visibility of this game engine.

it's easy to say "just fly at 5k and do BnZs" but actually flying at 5k means you see nothing beyond 2k underneath you.. so, do BnZs on.. what?!! thin air, and just a thin hope there's something underneath you?

I'm constantly flying at 4-5k, but the game is simply empty in there. the reds won't climb up there, unless they are forced too. and that can only be done by having bomber flights and make them primary target for mission's success.

it's even worse for bombers, and especially for the stuka.

also, the second biggest porking comes from server's missions. air war is simple: bombers flew to blow targets, fighters were trying to prevent them doing that, while the bombers' escorts were trying to protect them. everything else comes from this.

as long as missions don't have massive blue bombers formations trying to blast red island's from the face of the earth, and code for organizing the escorts/attackers, we won't have historical combat encounters on these servers, but just an elevated form of the old airquake..

Robo. 10-19-2012 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adonys (Post 470902)
you all forget the biggest porking a blue side pilot has to deal with: the extremely limited visibility of this game engine.

it's easy to say "just fly at 5k and do BnZs" but actually flying at 5k means you see nothing beyond 2k underneath you.. so, do BnZs on.. what?!! thin air, and just a thin hope there's something underneath you?

To be honest I don't have this problem. I did in the beginning (readjusting from old Il-2) but the longer I played, the less difficult it was. It is possible to spot contacts from 4-5k. It's not easy but I don't think it is supposed to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adonys (Post 470902)
I'm constantly flying at 4-5k, but the game is simply empty in there. the reds won't climb up there, unless they are forced too. and that can only be done by having bomber flights and make them primary target for mission's success.

From my experience on atag for example, there is quite a few red players at 20k.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adonys (Post 470902)
as long as missions don't have massive blue bombers formations trying to blast red island's from the face of the earth, and code for organizing the escorts/attackers, we won't have historical combat encounters on these servers, but just an elevated form of the old airquake..

True...

Ze-Jamz 10-19-2012 02:13 PM

Robo I don't know what your doing to be able to spot aircraft 4,5k underneath you which is what were saying and there isn't quite a few reds flying at high altitude at any one time, no way and I fly primetime European

And regardless no point flying high n fast a solid trate of the 109 n 190 as spits n hurris can now fly considerably higher?

Robo. 10-19-2012 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ze-Jamz (Post 470942)
Robo I don't know what your doing to be able to spot aircraft 4,5k underneath you which is what were saying and there isn't quite a few reds flying at high altitude at any one time, no way and I fly primetime European

I don't know, I just see contacts down below. Not sure if as low as 4,5km underneath but certainly more than 2 km. Often the con is too low to bother. Easier over water than over the land of course, but possible.

I don't know I always meet quite a few friendly contacts at alt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ze-Jamz (Post 470942)
And regardless no point flying high n fast a solid trate of the 109 n 190 as spits n hurris can now fly considerably higher?

That is true and a massive issue of this sim imho, unfortunately there is nothing we can do about that, they won't touch the FMs until the sequel. I haven't tested the new patch yet, what is the top ceiling of the 109 - still 7,4km? :(

Ataros 10-19-2012 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adonys (Post 470902)
as long as missions don't have massive blue bombers formations trying to blast red island's from the face of the earth, and code for organizing the escorts/attackers, we won't have historical combat encounters on these servers, but just an elevated form of the old airquake..

We can ask ATAG devs to program it into a mission e.g. as described here http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.co...or-ATAG-server
(allow fighter groups to spawn AI bombers they will escort like in old coops).

ATAG_Colander 10-19-2012 03:43 PM

Ataros,

I think that now that we have the final version of the game and no more changes are coming, we can really start thinking about how the get the max from the game.

As we know, is impossible to make everybody happy but we'll keep trying.
It will not happen overnight though :)

Winger 10-19-2012 05:56 PM

Well, if it s really true that allies can fly up to above 9k height and germans are stuck at 7.4k the game is done for me. No matter how good the rest is. Gamebreaker..

Winger

EDIT: Hmm. cant find where i read that. Can anyone confirm any red plane being able to go as high als 9000+ meters?

*Buzzsaw* 10-19-2012 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 471035)
Well, if it s really true that allies can fly up to above 9k height and germans are stuck at 7.4k the game is done for me. No matter how good the rest is. Gamebreaker..

Winger

EDIT: Hmm. cant find where i read that. Can anyone confirm any red plane being able to go as high als 9000+ meters?

It seems the Spitfire IIA is not affected by the Merlin III engine cutout bug which keeps the Spit IA's and Hurricanes lower. It can apparently climb to 29,000 ft.

However, the fix is simple: Just ban the Spit IIA on the servers till there is another patch... if that ever happens. Historically there weren't a lot of IIA's anyway. This was generally done in the first versions of the game anyway because the IIA was dominant then. (funny how there was no banning of the E-4 when the 109's were totally dominant...but that's another story ;) )

Removing the Spit IIA would put the balance in favour of the Germans up high as it would still mean the Spit IA 100 octane is crippled above 12,000 ft, and is effectively limited to 23,500 ft, the 109's have a definite advantage there, with the Hurricane IA 100 octane not being affected as badly.

The other thing the servers need to do is lower the height of the Bomber raids. They should be coming in at 12,000 ft so Red side is not completely porked when they are intercepting.

On the OP's comments:

I flew a 109E3 and E4 yesterday, and they are far from being porked, and I know for a fact their essential FM's have not been changed at all since the beginning of the Release candidate betas.

The 109 still climbs better than the Spit IA's and Hurricanes at higher alts, easily getting up to altitudes these red planes are struggling with their engine bug, and it also dives much better, and maneuvers at high speed better. So with alt, it can exit any combat it wants. It has more powerful guns, rolls better and can climb at steeper angles at lower speeds for zoom maneuvers. It is more than capable of holding its own in the hands of a decent pilot who knows how to boom and zoom and keep an alt advantage. On the other hand, if you dive down to the deck and get into turnfights, you will die, unless your opponent is a noob.


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