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swiss 12-11-2011 01:19 AM

Aircraft Videos and Images

credits for finding this link go to "airway"

AndyJWest 12-11-2011 05:09 AM

The whole series of events does seem to indicate that modern 'pilots' may manage to qualify without actually understanding even basic aerodynamics. Of course, most of the time, the airlines would rather leave the flying to the autopilot, which can probably squeeze out the last half-percent of fuel economy better than any human pilot. And when it goes wrong, they blame 'human error', and automate even more. Instead, we have to rely on software, which as everyone knows is entirely reliable, bug free, and guaranteed to deliver as advertised...

IvanK 12-11-2011 05:54 AM


Originally Posted by cheesehawk (Post 369077)
Wow, thanks for the link, very crazy read. It's hard to imagine that the controls in modern planes would let pilots do two opposite things, and average them out. Beyond the human error, that's simply unbelievable to me.

Its not quite as bad as that. Airbus mechanisation is such that Control inputs from both sticks are Algebraically summed and then transmitted to the Flight control computers.

However if 2 pilots are actively polling (an absolute no no in Airbus ideology) a voice alert "DUAL INPUT" is repeated. Its not subtle and clearly lets you know. Each joystick also has a Takeover button. When pressed this automatically prevents the inputs from the other stick getting to the flight control computers. When the button is pressed another voice alert blares "PRIORITY LEFT or RIGHT" together with a visual indication (an arrow) placed directly in the pilots line of sight indicating exactly who has control. In addition if the takeover button is pressed and held the other side stick is deactivated.

As to the reversion from "NORMAL" law to "ALTERNATE" law this is a very (imo) subtle indication. All you see is a small amber X in each corner of the attitude indicator. A better cue imo would be another voice alert like "ALTERNATE LAW" to leave you in no doubt that you are in a mode with reduced protections. The link makes mention that none of these pilots may have flown the aircraft in Alternate Law. Well maybe not in the actual aeroplane but they would have done a reasonable amount of Alternate law handling in the Simulator.

This accident presented the pilots with an horrific set of conflicting cues. A lot is going to be learnt from this accident. Changes to training and certification will undoubtedly result.

bongodriver 12-11-2011 10:24 AM


etc where the two pilots of a bomber/airliner need both people to pull out of whatever dive they've gotten themselves into. Seems strange to have 2 controls, but allow them to do different things
most aircraft have the dual controlls physically linked together so they can't operate independently, with airbus sidestick they are like computer joysticks and as IvanK said it's up to the computer to decide which one to pay attention to.


No doubt in my mind that isn't human error, as much as human instinct. When stuff hits the fan, and the brain/heart is racing, it's amazing what you can focus on and what you simply don't realize is happening around you.
When we do our CRM (crew resource management) courses they often use a classic little video to highlight exactly this particular point, the video is of a group of players, half wearing white and the others wearing black, the instructor asks you to count how many times a ball is passed between players wearing whichever colour, when the video finishes he asks how many times....most people give a similar answer, but then he asks if anybody saw the gorilla....anybody who never saw the video before really don't see the gorilla, he plays the video back and sure enough a guy in a gorilla suit walks across the screen and pauses in the middle of it to beat his chest and a carries on out of the picture, it's the same video, but it highlight how when the human brain is really focused or preoccupied it can miss the most obvious things.

swiss 12-11-2011 10:35 AM

I got a solution: Instead of normal joysticks, they need Sidewinders!
With FFB you can't stall without noticing.

Tavingon 12-11-2011 10:40 AM

Inside Interesting WW2 Planes
Please share here, I just found this and think it looks awesome

The mid gunner section in the Sunderland!

Hampden cockpit

swiss 12-11-2011 10:46 AM

A bit OT but,
next time you're in the Imperial Museum of War in London, have look at the Zero tail there, focus on the fasteners and the used technique.

Tavingon 12-11-2011 11:00 AM
Sitting in the back of a bf110

swiss 12-11-2011 11:36 AM

keep 'em coming. :grin:

TomcatViP 12-11-2011 01:52 PM


At this point of twisted minded code, Microsoft is fully qualified to writte part of the airbus FBW laws ;)

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