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5./JG27.Farber 05-28-2012 06:45 PM

SoWC:BoB Multisquad Campaign Starting
 
NEWS:

RED AND BLUE TEAM ARE NOW FULL!!!! REGISTRATION CLOSED

-08/06/2012

REGISTRATION CLOSED - BOTH TEAMS ARE FULL!









Storm of War Campaigns:Battle of Britian (Historical Multiquadron Campaign)


8pm European time (To Be Confirmed)

17th June 2012

7 Missions - 1 per week. 1 life/aircraft per mission, no reflies 20 mins after battle start! Server will be up 15 mins beofre for connecting.




Overview:

In the research we conducted trying to find red/blue attack/defend missions for our campaign we quickly realised that RAF Bomber Command played only a miniscule role in the whole battle. When RAF bomber Command did venture out it was often unescorted in daylight raids - which often proved deadly! So after much digging and deliberation we decided Blue would attack soley.

The missions selected are all based on historic actions in the Battle of Britain. To avoid people simply looking up the next mission and taking away the element of suprise, no dates will be used and they may or may not be in chronological order! So keep an open mind and your eyes peeled!

We are trying our best to create immersion and give the whole campaign a distinct BoB taste. For example we want to simulate the sense of urgency and desperation on the red side. We want the blue side to feel over streched and far from home - eyes on fuel guages!



Realism Settings:

FULL REALISM

AntropomorphicControl 0
ComplexEManagement 1
TorqueGyroEffects 1
EngineTemperatureEffects 1
FlutterEffects 1
WindTurbulence 1
StallSpins 1
Vulnerabilty 1
BlackoutsRedouts 1
Realisticgunnery 1
RealisticBombing 1
LimitedAmmo 1
LimitedFuel 1
CockpitAlwaysOn 1
NoOutsideViews 1
HeadShake 1
NoIcons 1
NoPadlock 1
Clouds 1
TakeoffLanding 1
RealisticLandings 1
NoMapIcons 1
NoMinimapPath 1
NoAutopilot 1
NoReplacementPlace 0
NoReplacement 0
NoSelect 0
NoReplacementArmy 0
NoSelectArmy 0
NoCreate 0


Player Limit 99:

First to sign up will fly first. So please get your squadron leader to sign up on the link below ASAP and have him make a post on the average number of pilots he expects to attend. 45 slots for Red. 45 Slots for Blue and 9 Blue bomber slots. If there is overwhelming interest we will run it again for those that missed out.


1 Life per Mission:

You may only have 1 life and 1 aircraft per sortie. So please practice your taxi-ing and take offs and be aware that sometimes your Squadron wont be the only Squadron on that airfield! Sometimes you will spawn in a hanger. If you have not taken off and do die respawn but please dont make a habbit of it.


Aircraft and Limits:

Only those aircraft below are limited, all other aircraft are unlimited. Sorry no Italian aircraft in our campaign. Numbers in brackets is the actual value of the percentile of 45 aircraft/players, for example 38% of 45 players is (17 ) as stated under Red, July, Spit Ia.


Red:


July
SpitfireI - Obsolete
SpitfireIa - 38% (17 ) (replaced by Spit IIa because of FM problems of Spit Ia)
SpitfireIIa - 0%
Hurricane DH20 - Obsolete
Hurricane Rotol - 62% (28 )

August
SpitfireI - Obsolete
SpitfireIa - 34% (15 ) (replaced by Spit IIa because of FM problems of Spit Ia)
SpitfireIIa - 0%
Hurricane DH20 - Obsolete
Hurricane - 66% (30 )

September
SpitfireI - Obsolete
SpitfireIa - 29% (13 ) (replaced by Spit IIa because of FM problems of Spit Ia)
SpitfireIIa - Unknown% - Proberbly 0%
Hurricane DH20 - Obsolete
Hurricane Rotol - 71% (32 )

Based on Servicable aircraft in 11 Group.


Blue:

July
E1 - 44% (20 )
E3 - 30% (14 )
E4 - 20% (9 )

August
E1 - 40% (18 )
E3 - 8% (4 )
E4 - 52% (23 )

September
E1 - 38% (17 )
E3 - 1% (1 )
E4 - 61% (27 )

Based on Percentile losses of 109s by subtype.


Mission 1 - July
Missions 2-6 - August
Mission 7 - September

Limited aircraft will rotate or each squadron will be assigned so many of each fighter type depending on what each side agrees with its self. As a general rule therefore consider red mostly flying Hurricanes and blues flying E1's untill August/September where they will mostly be flying E4's.

Objectives:

Red teams sole aim is to stop the bombers and lose as few aircraft and pilots as possible!

Blue teams aim is to destroy RAF fighter Command and to lose as few Aircraft and pilots as possible!



The BoB campaign is planned to be run as follows:

Red side will organise themselves based on in game radar reports, under the direction of one of several Squadron leaders who will operate flights. Squadron leaders are planned to have access to Ground Control / Chain Home throught the mission (TAB, 4,) menu in game, which after a small delay will guide them to the nearest threats. Every Red Squadron Leader with the tail number 1 (A) will be able to access this menu. The nember of Squadron leaders will be dictated by the number of red Squadrons. There will be a time delay of 4 mins from request and a 5 min lockout. So Squadron leaders will only be able to request information every 5 mins. The response will be given in the chat window and will tell the squadron leader the estimated course from last contact not the actual position. The position will also be based on land marks. For example "25+ aircraft 40km North of Calais...". The radar stations and control centres will be broken into several sectors. For example Dover station will cover the sectors to the South and East of Dover upto a realistic range. We have aimed to get the most realism out of the radar system.

Blue side will have an organised brief and will generally be escorting bombers and conducting Frei-Jagd fighter sweeps to gain Air superiority.

It is upto Squadrons/Staffeln to coordinate between themselves and improve upon the effectiveness of their forces to gain victory through tactics and teamwork.

The campaign will have Statistics recorded. From these stats will be determined which side (if any) won the mission. Victory Conditions will loosely be decided by how many Bombers the reds managed to shoot down and how many fighters were lost trying to do this both in the air and on the ground.


Statistics and scoring:

A seperate database will be created for each mission so you can see the performance of yourself, your squadron and your team. It will look something like this:

http://70.176.212.41:8888/ClodStats/index.php


More details and signup here:

http://sowc.forumotion.co.uk/

bw_wolverine 05-28-2012 07:48 PM

Just a note in case it wasn't considered:

June 17th is Father's Day over here (not sure if it's the same in Europe). So that may provide some conflicts for a number of our older pilots.

But that note out of the way, hurrah! Very welcome news!

5./JG27.Farber 05-29-2012 04:30 PM

Forgot to mention there will be stats. Added at bottom of original post.

bw_wolverine 05-29-2012 07:01 PM

If you're going to allow allotments of 1 (one) aircraft, then I think there should be a couple IIas in August and September considering they were first delivered to a few squadrons in August.

Like, maybe 2 in Aug and 4 in Sept?

It's not even that I think they will be of any use to us in such small numbers. I just think they should have a representation of some small amount based on their historically being introduced in Aug.

Plus, it's better for the optics of the thing.

EDIT: After reading into this a bit more, the IIas of 611 were in Lincolnshire (not in 11 Group) and even P7350 wasn't moved to Hornchurch until October so not including IIa's seems more okay. I hadn't realized they never stationed them in the south until Oct.

So, no Spit IIas is fine by me after all. We're in for a bit of a beating, I'm afraid, but we'll do our best.

klem 05-29-2012 10:00 PM

Steam or Patch?

_79_dev 05-29-2012 11:02 PM

~S~

Server is running latest patch+hotFix and campaign will be running on it as well. Unless we will get something new...

5./JG27.Farber 05-30-2012 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klem (Post 430096)
Steam or Patch?

Theres always something I leave out :) As Vogler said beta patch + hotfix. Unless something more stable and accurate comes out.

klem 05-30-2012 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 430142)
Theres always something I leave out :) As Vogler said beta patch + hotfix. Unless something more stable and accurate comes out.

Thanks guys, I've punted it to the Squad.

79_dev = Vogler? JG27?

Hi dev, are the 79 guys in on this?

_79_dev 05-30-2012 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klem (Post 430181)

79_dev = Vogler? JG27?

Hi dev, are the 79 guys in on this?

Yes my good old friend...That is just my old nick. I don't belong to 79 anymore but I will ask theme.

macro 05-30-2012 11:31 AM

Im game for a laugh, think this will be massacre with no spit 2's. Can fly either red or blue not with a squad so can fill in to make numbers up

Jatta Raso 05-30-2012 01:27 PM

no Spit IIa ?? i think the blues have enough advantages already...

i'm all in favor of historical settings, but the only historical thing of these settings is the set of AC names in a list; the general performance of the AC has nothing of historical, i highly doubt this choice will portrait anything close to reality; don't want to sound harsh but i would rather have a performance balance closer to reality, instead of adjusting the AC availability to match a names list of a given time frame.

or to put it simpler, no Spits IIa at this time doesn't match or try to come close to historical performance balance, and gameplay wise it's also a not very good idea

bw_wolverine 05-30-2012 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jatta Raso (Post 430258)
no Spit IIa ?? i think the blues have enough advantages already...

i'm all in favor of historical settings, but the only historical thing of these settings is the set of AC names in a list; the general performance of the AC has nothing of historical, i highly doubt this choice will portrait anything close to reality; don't want to sound harsh but i would rather have a performance balance closer to reality, instead of adjusting the AC availability to match a names list of a given time frame.

or to put it simpler, no Spits IIa at this time doesn't match or try to come close to historical performance balance, and gameplay wise it's also a not very good idea

Actually, I just did a bit more research into this and asked some of our other guys in 501/64 and the Spitfire IIa wasn't really in action near the south until Oct.

First IIas showed up in service in August, but they were not near 11 group in the south until October-ish, as far as I can find in my lookings.

So in the interests of the historic, I'd prefer not to see the IIa in action in this campaign after all. That doesn't mean I think we're not in for a beating, but I'm all for the idea behind not including it: historical as possible. FMs are borked, but we can't help that.

I'd rather have a Spit I anyway :P Two-stage prop for me!

Jatta Raso 05-30-2012 06:01 PM

i see your point but if historical means recreating the actual conditions, you should choose AC availability to match the performance balance present at the time, instead of making an AC list that respects just a names ratio of that time and little else. the current choice gives the blues a performance and thus a tactical advantage never present in 1940; the Spits available (I,Ia) were competitive against the 109-E, in CLoD even the IIa is hardly, in RL 1940 the Hurricane could perform well on certain conditions, in CLoD is obsolete.

however cheers for these guys organizing the event, it's their show and they run it as they see fit, mine are just thoughts from an outsider

5./JG27.Farber 05-30-2012 06:25 PM

I'd rather this thread just be kept for people asking questions rather than a FM debate. However I do see you point but I dont have any info on the spit or hurricanes from clod and RL. Maybe you can PM me. ;)

However the idea of the campaign is not for fighters to simply go toe to toe. Its about the objectives. Reds must loose as least number of fighters in the air and on the ground and Blue must loose the least number of bombers. If both sides do not try to achieve this objective, they will lose.

macro 05-30-2012 07:02 PM

sorry mate my intention wasnt to start THAT debate here, just pointing it out for the sake of gameplay , i would have thought the blues would like some competition as in the game the spit 2 is the only plane near the 109 due to the inacurate fm's (apparantly). i thought it would be a walk over for blues but im game to find out if so :grin:

5./JG27.Farber 05-30-2012 09:09 PM

No problem. Im open to any suggestions.

salmo 05-31-2012 06:17 AM

A pity the battle is scheduled for a Sunday night (European time). This will exclude most pilots in the Oceania timezones as 9pm European time 17th June 2012 (Sunday) is early Monday morning in Australia, New Zealand & east Asia regions. That being said, I have some questions.

1. Will a player who runs out of ammo or fuel be allowed to land & spawn in another plane?
2. Will a player who has a damaged aircraft be allowed to land & get a new undamaged aircraft?
3. I believe that only aircraft XX-A (leader) of a group has access to radar calls, if the leader is killed, does XX-B then have access to radar facilities?

Keep up the good work :)

wannabetheace 05-31-2012 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salmo (Post 430530)
A pity the battle is scheduled for a Sunday night (European time). This will exclude most pilots in the Oceania timezones as 9pm European time 17th June 2012 (Sunday) is early Monday morning in Australia, New Zealand & east Asia regions. That being said, I have some questions.

Keep up the good work :)

Yeah same here. It is Monday morning. 5 am or 6am in Korea.
how log will the mission last? if it lasts 2hours barely make it before office hours :confused:

5./JG27.Farber 05-31-2012 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salmo (Post 430530)
A pity the battle is scheduled for a Sunday night (European time). This will exclude most pilots in the Oceania timezones as 9pm European time 17th June 2012 (Sunday) is early Monday morning in Australia, New Zealand & east Asia regions.

Sorry about that. We were aiing for Saturday at the same time for the readon you stated but our server admin will be working Saturday 90% of the time. So unfortunatley it just want possible.



Quote:

Originally Posted by salmo (Post 430530)
That being said, I have some questions.

1. Will a player who runs out of ammo or fuel be allowed to land & spawn in another plane?

No. Think of it like Coop mode from Old IL2.


Quote:

Originally Posted by salmo (Post 430530)
2. Will a player who has a damaged aircraft be allowed to land & get a new undamaged aircraft?

No. Think of it like Coop mode from Old IL2.


Quote:

Originally Posted by salmo (Post 430530)
3. I believe that only aircraft XX-A (leader) of a group has access to radar calls, if the leader is killed, does XX-B then have access to radar facilities?

Keep up the good work :)

No he doesnt. Hence its important to stay with the Squadron leader and protect him. ATAG have kindly said they would host comes so it should not be such a problem. However I still have to catch up with Bliss or someone to finalise it.

5./JG27.Farber 05-31-2012 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wannabetheace (Post 430534)
how log will the mission last? if it lasts 2hours barely make it before office hours :confused:

The maxiumum time for a mission will be 2 hours. However Most of the action will be wrapped up around the hour mark in most missions.

Buzpilot 06-01-2012 06:18 PM

Looking forward to this, will be interesting to see how Allied planes will do.
If it's too embarrassing, i'll go DCS until a decent patch is out :)

klem 06-01-2012 06:21 PM

Six so far from 56 Sqdn. There may be an absentee on first night due to something called a fotball match involving Holland.

5./JG27.Farber 06-01-2012 07:37 PM

Hi Klem, Glad your joining us. At least you or one of your guys needs to register on the SoWC's forum. A link can be found at the bottom of the OP. Yea I know I hate registering on forums too (I had to register twice).

Last time we ran the big one we found it was too prone to failure to use PM's and also far to complicated and time consuming. So we have a forum with a public, Red and Blue area. Each mission has its own section and Squadron leaders have a section where only other SL'ers can reply. Its here you can discuss tactics with other SL'ers. Each mission then has its own section for red and blue for mission planning.

Best hurry aswell becasue both teams are around half full. ;)

EDIT, the red team would be half full if more that one squad had filled in the thread...

salmo 06-02-2012 05:18 AM

I've registered at the forums but cannot login. Can't re-register as email address is in use. :(

klem 06-02-2012 06:54 AM

RAF pilots wanted
 
At the moment we are short of RAF pilots.

If any single players out there want to fly RAF you don't, as the campaign website explains, have to be a member of a Squad. You can tag along with other Squads, we may be able to offer Leaders or we could help get some of you together to form your own temporary campaign Squad.

This is for RAF pilots only of course. The LW can, well... pfffttttt... they've got plenty already ;)

5./JG27.Farber 06-02-2012 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salmo (Post 431179)
I've registered at the forums but cannot login. Can't re-register as email address is in use. :(

Salmo as of this post Ive activated all the accounts wich have applied.

Quote:

Originally Posted by klem (Post 431194)
At the moment we are short of RAF pilots.

501 and another ACG squad has yet to register themselves so its actually about even.

klem 06-02-2012 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 431204)
...............
501 and another ACG squad has yet to register themselves so its actually about even.

Great :)

5./JG27.Farber 06-02-2012 09:28 AM

Sorry Salmo, I'd opened the email to activate your account but not clicked the link.

In other news for Ozzies, we have decided to push the campaign back 1 hour to so they wont be late for work. However that means they have to go to bed an hour earlier. :rolleyes:

5./JG27.Farber 06-02-2012 10:55 AM

Blue registration is pretty full. As yet no one has shown interest in flying blue bombers - 9 places, flying virtually every blue bomber in the campaign.

Reds stand at 26/45

SG1_Lud 06-02-2012 11:36 AM

Hi Farber, we at the SG1 will bring both bombers and fighters. How do we state that, I missed something. Thanks.

5./JG27.Farber 06-02-2012 12:14 PM

Ok how many wish to fly fighters and how many for fighters?

There are all bomber types just not always all of the in every mission. JU87, JU88, HE111, BF110

SG1_Lud 06-02-2012 12:20 PM

PM sent at SoWC

Buzpilot 06-02-2012 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 431236)
Blue registration is pretty full. As yet no one has shown interest in flying blue bombers - 9 places, flying virtually every blue bomber in the campaign.

Reds stand at 26/45

Those reds include our server group?
501: 6
64: 6
401: 5
JG26: 5

5./JG27.Farber 06-02-2012 06:51 PM

Yes. Numbers are correct on the SoWC forum, JG26 signed up as Blue.

Buzpilot 06-02-2012 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 431353)
Yes. Numbers are correct on the SoWC forum, JG26 signed up as Blue.

I see, i just noticed JG26 wasn't supposed to be among reds, sorry guys :)

vranac 06-02-2012 07:18 PM

First of all thank you for organizing this campaign.

I would like to fly for the red side.I'm registered on SoWC forum.

5./JG27.Farber 06-03-2012 04:10 PM

Please follow instructions there, Squadron sign up is closed for blue except for reservists. Red is half full.

Individual sign up is open, please make a post expressing you wish to fly with a squadron as a pubber in the appropiate section.

All accounts have been activated to date.

Jatta Raso 06-04-2012 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klem (Post 431194)
At the moment we are short of RAF pilots.

If any single players out there want to fly RAF you don't, as the campaign website explains, have to be a member of a Squad. You can tag along with other Squads, we may be able to offer Leaders or we could help get some of you together to form your own temporary campaign Squad.

This is for RAF pilots only of course. The LW can, well... pfffttttt... they've got plenty already ;)

i think the problem is about Reds not wanting to participate on a turkey shoot (i sure don't :-|)

5./JG27.Farber 06-04-2012 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jatta Raso (Post 431775)
i think the problem is about Reds not wanting to participate on a turkey shoot (i sure don't :-|)

There has been talk of replacing the SpitIa with the SpitII however Ive asked for the max speed and climb graphs of the - SpitIa & Spit IIa in game and the SpitIa in real life, however no one yet has cme up with the goods!? So I cannot simply act on a whim.

Can anyone provide this?

bw_wolverine 06-04-2012 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 431778)
There has been talk of replacing the SpitIa with the SpitII however Ive asked for the max speed and climb graphs of the - SpitIa & Spit IIa in game and the SpitIa in real life, however no one yet has cme up with the goods!? So I cannot simply act on a whim.

Can anyone provide this?

Aren't these all over the forums? I think IvanK recently threw up a few good graphs.

FM/DM subforum should have all this stuff.

klem 06-04-2012 08:25 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 431778)
There has been talk of replacing the SpitIa with the SpitII however Ive asked for the max speed and climb graphs of the - SpitIa & Spit IIa in game and the SpitIa in real life, however no one yet has cme up with the goods!? So I cannot simply act on a whim.

Can anyone provide this?

Farber, with respect I don't think you can be tied to historical marks of Spitfire because we do not have historical Spitfire MkI or MkII performance (on several levels). 1C have not published charts for RAF a/c performance since the Patch+mini patch but I can show you how the pre-patch CoD Spitfire Ia compared with RL in the attached. The Orange/yellow line (taken from 1Cs own chart, also attached) is the pre-patch Spitfire MkI versus the RL data for the Spitfire I and 109s. It was pathetically undermodelled.

All the latest patch has done is:-
"Spitfire Mk.I
Fixed the top speed dip above 18,000 ft."

see http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...49&postcount=1
So it's still pathetically undermodelled.

and they neutered the overmodelled (?) Spitfire MkII:
"Spitfire Mk.II
The aircraft's speed performance was too good at all altitudes, sometimes 60 mph better than the real thing."

(same link)

I have not done any tests on the MkII since the patch but we have been flying it exclusively since the patch and it is now unquestionably below the 109 performance so you have nothing to fear. My gut feeling is that it may now be something more like a Spitfire MkI or MkII running on 87 Octane fuel. The Spitfire MkII actually ran on 100 octane with the Merlin XII not 87 octane and would give a normal max boost of +9lbs and therefore more power than +6lbs but our MkII doesn't, it only gives ~6lbs. It seems to be modelled with 87 Octane fuel and so without the +9lbs boost. I believe its performance if it had used 87 Octane would have been little different to the MkI, the 100 octane simply allowed higher boost pressures to be used which is what gave the higher performance, not the simple fact that it was 100 octane. Similarly the maximum MkI performance with 100 Octane would have been similar to the MkII with 100 octane as they both allowed the same 12lbs short term boost. A lot is made of the difference between the Merlin III and the Merlin XII but in performance terms I don't think they were much different. The XII was structurally stronger and so was able to routinely use a higher normal max boost (9lbs with 100 octane) than the Merlin III (6.25lbs) which is why it could routinely outperformed the MkI.

If you want a meaningful combat scenario I think you should use the Spitfire MkIIa which we currently have in COD to represent Spitfire MkIa's running on 87 Octane. We know that in the BoB both front line Marks actually used 100 Octane and short term overboost (12lbs) giving short term low-medium altitude advantage but we can't get round that just now.

The COD Spitfire MkI is heavily porked. IMHO the CoD MkII seems to get closer to the real MkI than the CoD MkI but is still no match for a properly flown 109.

I hope no-one will drag up all the endless arguments about MkI/MkII, 87/100 octane, CoD/RL. The above is my belief and I won't argue any of those points in here.

Osprey 06-04-2012 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 431778)
There has been talk of replacing the SpitIa with the SpitII however Ive asked for the max speed and climb graphs of the - SpitIa & Spit IIa in game and the SpitIa in real life, however no one yet has cme up with the goods!? So I cannot simply act on a whim.

Can anyone provide this?

I gave you these Farber, but klem has supplied some more I see, nice, I've not seen these.

The Spit II is slower than the 109 too, until 19kft apparently, I had a few fights up there yesterday, 501/64 vs JG26 and it was good. The IIa wasn't faster than the Ia IRL anyway, it was just built for 100 octane without conversion (in a nutshell). Klem is correct, in game the IIa is more like an 87 octane Ia (IIa never ran on 87), only with a totally botched ROC and FTH (2lbs @ 16kft!!!)

Nobody flies the Rotol anymore online, it is almost useless. Unfortunately we have a situation where the RAF are castrated so badly with the patch that online numbers have fallen off the Cliffs of Dover. Even Hurricane squadrons like 56 and 501 no longer want to fly them. If you want a decent fight and more fun for all then just have only IIa's, if you want historical numbers then put in 'the truth', but doing that will not give you any historical accuracy at all. I'm sorry you are forced into the corner on it, we are all suffering though.

5./JG27.Farber 06-04-2012 10:48 AM

Hey guys, its about historical accuracy which is not just in a name Klem you are quite correct. The thing is that we in 5./JG27 dont fly spits, you can talk about different boosts and fuel and all that but all we know is Daimler Benz and kmh etc... So its hard for us to understand however a graph on speed and climb anyone can understand... Which is why I asked. Ive been looking for them myself this morning and found the same lack of material from 1c.

From what I have heard from red players on this forum, seen some graphs and experienced online, I'd agree with what you saying. We will replace the SpitIa with the II. - However if some patch comes out during the campaign we may have to readdress it for historical purposes just like we have here.

Osprey 06-04-2012 10:53 AM

The climb tests are an edit made by IvanK I think. The speed is from B6.

What are you trying to confirm exactly Farber? I'm assuming here that you don't want a turkey shoot because it's not fun for anybody and you are trying to establish that the Spitfire II isn't over-modeled? It isn't, it under-performs compared to the 109.

5./JG27.Farber 06-04-2012 11:06 AM

Everyone posted whilst I was looking for info Osprey... Read my above post again. What I was trying to establish was is the Spit II in clod more like the Spit Ia of RL...

klem 06-04-2012 11:49 AM

Non-Squad players.....
 
Some of you guys without a Squad have said you'd like to take part. Please go here:

http://sowc.forumotion.co.uk/t6-publ...ers-read-me#60

and put your names down. We can sort you out. We can't do it from here.

Osprey 06-04-2012 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 431848)
Everyone posted whilst I was looking for info Osprey... Read my above post again. What I was trying to establish was is the Spit II in clod more like the Spit Ia of RL...

Unfortunately not, but neither is the 109 ;)

They are however the best match we have. I'd even argue that the Spitfire Ia is a better match for the Hurricane IRL than the Hurricane Rotol is. ('#' line vs cyan line vs '*' line)

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...climbscod6.jpg

IvanK 06-04-2012 01:04 PM

Here is a real world comparison Spit I v Spit II both ROTOL Constant speed equipped. Hashed line the MKI Merlin III , continuous line the MKII Merlin XII. The MKXII Merlin supercharger ratio was a little different to the MKI. The MKII was also a little heavier than the MKI. The MKI values are running +6.25Lbs Boost and the MKII running +9Lbs Boost. As can be seen in both Speed and climb there is not an awful lot in it.

Sadly these values are not currently reflected in reflected in game.

Time to Height:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...1vspit2clb.jpg

Speeds:
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...pit1vSpit2.jpg

5./JG27.Farber 06-04-2012 01:43 PM

Thanks IvanK.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 431842)
Hey guys, its about historical accuracy which is not just in a name Klem you are quite correct. The thing is that we in 5./JG27 dont fly spits, you can talk about different boosts and fuel and all that but all we know is Daimler Benz and kmh etc... So its hard for us to understand however a graph on speed and climb anyone can understand... Which is why I asked. Ive been looking for them myself this morning and found the same lack of material from 1c.

From what I have heard from red players on this forum, seen some graphs and experienced online, I'd agree with what you saying. We will replace the SpitIa with the II. - However if some patch comes out during the campaign we may have to readdress it for historical purposes just like we have here.

^^

Sven 06-04-2012 02:52 PM

As I suggested earlier, it will be best to forget about the SpitIa, and replace it with the SpitII completely.
SpitII has got the high altitude advantages and turns very quickly, the 109 climbs better and is faster up until 6k,
but has become more prone to spins and stalling, leading edge slats still not popping out at correct speed.

Reds will have their hands full on destroying bombers, presumably with their slower Hurricanes.
So they will need all the help they can get. I am for keeping the Hurricane/Spit ratio, to at least play a Battle of Britain scenario.

Danelov 06-04-2012 04:57 PM

Is near incredible to this date to still wait and wait for a decent Spitfire MK I in: a Game of the Battle of Britain! This plane is the symbol of BOB, his presentation card. That´s like a game of the Battle of Trafalgar with a useless "Victory" or a simultation of Apollo XI with a useless Luna Module "Eagle" or a "Red Baron" with a porked DRI . In the limit maybe we can accept something with a secondary plane like the Blenheim or the Fiat Cr.42, but pleeeeeeease with the Spitfire Mk I in a simultation of BOB?

klem 06-05-2012 11:22 AM

1 Attachment(s)
For what its worth I did some quick tests on max speed in the Spitfire MkII, collecting data through a BlackBox script. Chart attached, full results here:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...94&postcount=6

No wonder we cant catch you, we're about 20mph too slow at medium altitude :(

5./JG27.Farber 06-05-2012 11:58 AM

I did a simular test on the 109, IAS at SL is 460kmh and 420kmh at 5k... Thats at 1.3 Ata not full throttle with boost but theres not a great deal of difference.

I have tracks if anyone wants them.

Osprey 06-05-2012 12:19 PM

I'll put my neck out here and suggest that the castrated Hurricane be replaced by the Spitfire MkIa. The present Rotol is so poor as to be fodder, it can barely catch the bombers now, and if a human flies the Stuka then I would have my money on the Stuka to win the dogfight

The Spitfire Ia is porked so badly it is a closer match to the RL Hurricane than the Hurricane is, only in game it can turn which the Hurricane cannot - that is also true to RL given that the Hurricane could out turn the Spitfire. So, you have an FM which is a closer match to RL, but you have a plane shape that is totally different - this is the dilemma.

bw_wolverine 06-05-2012 01:04 PM

I actually don't really care about this bit, to be honest. 401 will be in Hurricanes regardless.

If it's a slaughter, it's a slaughter. I don't think the IIa, the Ia, or anything the Reds have is able to compete with a competently flown 109 right now. The IIa maybe, but only if you catch the other guy unawares or at lower altitude than you.

It's really going to come down to who can position their forces best.

5./JG27.Farber 06-05-2012 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osprey (Post 432209)
I'll put my neck out here and suggest that the castrated Hurricane be replaced by the Spitfire MkIa.

It would not be the BoB without the Hurricane, it would be the dance of the spitfire :-P

I think its best we keep the Hurricane. Not all of the blue fighter pilots will be flying 109's, some will be flying 110's.

bw_wolverine 06-05-2012 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 432228)
It would not be the BoB without the Hurricane, it would be the dance of the spitfire :-P

I think its best we keep the Hurricane. Not all of the blue fighter pilots will be flying 109's, some will be flying 110's.

There's very little that is BoB about the game currently. At best, it's a weird alternate history version. But let's have some fun with what we have :)

Bring it on.

5./JG27.Farber 06-05-2012 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine (Post 432245)
There's very little that is BoB about the game currently. At best, it's a weird alternate history version. But let's have some fun with what we have :)

Bring it on.

Very sporting approach Wolverine! Good man ;)

..and dont forget, half of the 109's you face will be out gunned!

Osprey 06-05-2012 03:44 PM

15 secs versus 1 minute. I see what you are saying in weight per second but that's not a strictly true statement. What really matters is guns on target anyway - I can have 12 hispanos but if my ride is so inferior it can't get it's guns on target then even 1 peashooter is the better option. Still, I might surprise someone, and if the IIa's can keep the 109's occupied then I can bring down 3 bombers no probs. Just be warned, not everyone is as happy to die as Wolverine ;)


Slow down the bombers Farber and don't make them too high. The Hurricane is a dog, 1C personally made sure it was ruined.

5./JG27.Farber 06-05-2012 03:54 PM

Bf109 E1 has four machine guns, the wing mounted ones dont carry half as much ammo.

Glad you are brining some passion to the fight! It will make it more challenging! ;)

S!

bw_wolverine 06-05-2012 04:01 PM

I think we all know the issues.

We should treat the campaign as an opportunity to run some nice coordinated squadron action and whatever happens happens.

I want to shoot down the enemy before he gets me as much as the next guy! I'd like to survive this campaign. That's my goal. Shooting down enemy bombers and fighters is secondary objective.

So if I get up to altitude, spot a bomber formation and attack it, drawing 109s onto me, I'll dive or evade as much as possible to get back towards England. If its inevitable that I get shot down, then that's that, but if I can bail out over England and fight another day, well that's one or two 109s that I drew away from the bombers plus I survived.

No kills for me, but I still call it a good contribution.

The statistics page is going to heavily lean towards the Blue I'm afraid. I'm okay with that simply because it really doesn't matter to me with my own personal goals that I feel are achievable with what I have. I will be tracking No.401 performance in this campaign on my own based on my own criteria anyway.

After all, in a war there's never some overarching body that declares the winner at the end of a battle. Both sides make their own conclusions and carry on from there.

EDIT: I will add this though. I think anyone who brags about 'winning' these scenarios or even in dogfight servers is expressing incredibly poor form given the state of the game. I hope that both sides will understand and respect that. No one in historical re-enactments brags about being on the winning side. They're just happy to be able to participate in the event and thankful that there were people portraying the opposing side. So I'm thankful we have human Blue opposition and human Red allies. We all win.

Osprey 06-05-2012 04:17 PM

In the RAF, 'line shooting' is frowned upon ;)

bw_wolverine 06-05-2012 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osprey (Post 432269)
In the RAF, 'line shooting' is frowned upon ;)

Indeed. I wonder if the Luftwaffe had a similar phrase?

5./JG27.Farber 06-05-2012 05:20 PM

Good post Wolverine. Survival first objective second is also the motto of our Staffel. If they dont survive they dont get anything added to their careers (which only count in these squad vs squad events). So its not about kills - or victories as I prefer to call them but getting the job done with all your body parts intact and a pulse. ;)

bw_wolverine 06-05-2012 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 432287)
Good post Wolverine. Survival first objective second is also the motto of our Staffel. If they dont survive they dont get anything added to their careers (which only count in these squad vs squad events). So its not about kills - or victories as I prefer to call them but getting the job done with all your body parts intact and a pulse. ;)

Douglas Bader would argue that point :P

5./JG27.Farber 06-05-2012 05:57 PM

Yea but most people agree he was an arogant c***... I mean that in the niciest possible way of course. I dont hate him.

Osprey 06-06-2012 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine (Post 432270)
Indeed. I wonder if the Luftwaffe had a similar phrase?

They had a similar philosophy, certainly in WW1 when there was more chivalry. I think it was tainted by the Nazi propaganda machine though which needed 'heroes', and some may have taken advantage of this. Marseille for example, 17 kills in a sortie which DAF records don't support? Lies I tell ya!

5./JG27.Farber 06-06-2012 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osprey (Post 432470)
They had a similar philosophy, certainly in WW1 when there was more chivalry. I think it was tainted by the Nazi propaganda machine though which needed 'heroes', and some may have taken advantage of this. Marseille for example, 17 kills DURING 3 sorties in one day which DAF records don't support?

Fixed that for you ;)

Osprey 06-06-2012 11:03 AM

Doesn't matter how many sorties, he never did it or you'd have at least similar records in the DAF showing big losses. Johnnie Johnson was so suspicious of his claims that he went and researched it personally just after the war and being a Group Captain had access to the RAF records. His conclusion was that Marseille and his wingman, who frequently went out alone, made a lot of them up.
Let's face it, it got him promotion, trips out of the war and into Berlin for as many fraulines as he could handle ;) Why wouldn't he?

But I am open to correction on this interesting topic, another thread?

5./JG27.Farber 06-06-2012 11:55 AM

Or we could just leave it for the historians... ;)

That way I dont have to fish out my massive tome on Marseille and start reading and I really dont have time for that and the campaign. :-P

Osprey 06-06-2012 01:16 PM

JG27 fanboy.......... ;) Ginger Lacey FTW!

5./JG27.Farber 06-06-2012 02:11 PM

We picked JG27 because they were in nearly all theatres, not because of Marseille ;) besides, he was in I Gruppe, we are in II Gruppe...

Osprey 06-06-2012 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 432505)
Or we could just leave it for the historians... ;)

Forget the historians, this is better :) I always love to hear these chaps talking about their experiences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqVTw-WuVes

5./JG27.Farber 06-06-2012 07:54 PM

As the fine gentlemen explains two pilots can claim the same victory, it happened allot, Ive seen it in the AAR's by our squadron and the stats showed that two had attacked the same only 1 aircraft not 2. All sides over claimed but no one can refute that the German scoring system was the most robust...

I think allot of the over claiming in Africa was due to the lack of personnel on the ground who would have been witnesses had the theatre not been so open and vast. Another theory I have is if an aircraft vanishes over a sandune and the sun reflects and gives a "flash" it would be easy to think he had crashed and exploded.

Theres a brilliant chapter in Mike Spick's book about what actually constitutes a victory... I dont think a victory is as clear cut as the destruction of an aircraft although the airforces of the world certainly did and do think so...

Your a football fan arn't you Osprey...

ATAG_Snapper 06-07-2012 01:49 AM

The fog of war....further clouded by the fog of 70 years gone by. They were all heroes in my book, on both sides, including the newbie pilots that got shot down on their initial sorties. Both sides also desperately needed to publicize the airmen's achievements to help bolster morale with a war weary public. All to say, what was......was.

Osprey 06-07-2012 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 432626)

Your a football fan arn't you Osprey...

http://seeklogo.com/images/C/Crystal...eklogo.com.gif

5./JG27.Farber 06-07-2012 09:47 AM

That explains the sabre rattling pre match... :-P

You remind me of this: ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN1WN0YMWZU

Osprey 06-07-2012 12:40 PM

As much as I like Mitchell he knows absolutely nothing at all about this stuff and what surrounds it. In the past I've been a season ticket holder for several years, lots of away days and even played a few seasons for the supporters club when I was fit enough. One thing I can say is that the game has such a broad spectrum of people who like it, support it and follow it that you just plain don't have single stereotypes. I'm sure David would be disappointed to learn that the groups of fans who do the chanting are very much a minority in a crowd and largely under 30.

JG27 - Come and have a go if you think you're 'ard enough.......... :)

5./JG27.Farber 06-07-2012 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osprey (Post 432771)
JG27 - Come and have a go if you think you're 'ard enough.......... :)

Can never quite bring yourself to press that 5 button before JG27 can you. O well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf8fs...eature=related

Osprey 06-08-2012 07:00 AM

I do, just not all the time.

Just for you though

5./JG27

5./JG27.Farber 06-08-2012 04:36 PM

Looks like the campaign may be postponed 1 week or at least the aircraft changed for red... Stand by. ;)

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=32577

ATAG_Dutch 06-08-2012 04:47 PM

Oh wow. Best of luck with that mate! :lol:

klem 06-08-2012 07:20 PM

I smell 100 octane :)

ATAG_Snapper 06-08-2012 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 433153)
Looks like the campaign may be postponed 1 week or at least the aircraft changed for red... Stand by. ;)

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=32577

This is an excellent turn of events for your Campaign, Farber. A fitting reward for your hard work on this. Wishing it all falls into place for you!

Jatta Raso 06-09-2012 03:40 AM

great just great, looks like i'm going in after all :grin:

Osprey 06-09-2012 08:57 AM

With 100 octane we can beat Jerry. I'm going to give him a black eye!

klem 06-09-2012 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osprey (Post 433388)
With 100 octane we can beat Jerry. I'm going to give him a black eye!

As long as he comes down to where its an advantage for us :)

AbortedMan 06-11-2012 10:07 PM

Am I too late to get in on the campaign with the 401 on red? Been ultra busy with work and finally got a second to get the details of the mission.

I've registered on the SoW forum, just not sure what else to do...

EDIT: Ah, I see someone posted my name as a tentative player on the registration list, thank you. I'll get with my squadron leader to confirm my attendance.

5./JG27.Farber 06-11-2012 11:00 PM

Everyone already registered please check forums! Aborted Man - your safe. :-P

AbortedMan 06-11-2012 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 434155)
Everyone already registered please check forums! Aborted Man - your safe. :-P

Ehhh, safe as in "I'm on the roster" or as in "You're safe because you aren't flying the dangerous skies"? Hoping for the former.

5./JG27.Farber 06-11-2012 11:50 PM

The former, you reds are a timid bunch arnt you... :-P

AbortedMan 06-12-2012 01:36 AM

'that the kind of Red you need?...the timid type? ;)

5./JG27.Farber 06-12-2012 01:51 AM

Upto you, Loss of red fighters vs blue bombers... Your call...

wannabetheace 06-12-2012 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 434164)
The former, you reds are a timid bunch arnt you... :-P

Same here can I get in as reds :)


edit:
registered on forum http://sowc.forumotion.co.uk/login
as Ystreb=Giap69=

AbortedMan 06-12-2012 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 434173)
Upto you, Loss of red fighters vs blue bombers... Your call...

That was a missed Inglorious Basterds reference.

See you on your 6!

5./JG27.Farber 06-12-2012 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wannabetheace (Post 434179)
Same here can I get in as reds :)


edit:
registered on forum http://sowc.forumotion.co.uk/login
as Ystreb=Giap69=

Sorry both teams are full :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbortedMan (Post 434181)
That was a missed Inglorious Basterds reference.

See you on your 6!

Ah, not seen it. Too busy building campaigns :rolleyes:

Osprey 06-12-2012 12:36 PM

Farbs, surely the squadrons are entered and the actual pilots can vary?? One week Robo might not make it but Wedge can. Also, I put in 6 as an average but we may be 8 or we may be 4 on a given day. And finally, to confuse the Hun even more, we are ACG and operate 3 squadrons in our umbrella, therefore 401 may be short but 501 over. :)

5./JG27.Farber 06-12-2012 01:03 PM

Theres 46 Reds and 56 blues (including 9 bomber pilots)

During the server tests we only had around 40 people on the server, it seemed fine and on the 2nd occasion nobody had any problems. We have set a limit of 99 for playability client side. We must stick to the plan or it will spiral out of control - too many cooks spoil the broth! I think you wont see a complete and full turn out everyweek but imagine if we do and you can't get in because we just let to many people sign up, you would be very disapointed. Potentially right now, if everyone turns up who is correctly registered 3 people wont be able to get in... I dont want to go over the server limit and have annoyed people breathing down my kneck, sending me PMs and emails etc...

Just make sure your guys know that if they dont attend they weaken your side! To just "see how many turn up on the day" is not really an option, its far too much administrational work. I already have a problem in that since my Staffel was registered 3 weeks ago Ive had two new recruits, hence I may not have enough slots for my own guys, So I may have to turn my own pilots away on a match day so I dont exceed my quota.

The campaign is full and sign up is closed.



On another note tomorrow is wednesday. Possible the patch we have all been waiting for may appear in the final days of this week... However we all know that the devs promise things that take longer to appear and change their internal Schedule more times than we change our underware (I assume you guys change yours everyday aswell...) Therefore:

If the patch is out tomorrow we will start on 17th. If it is not out tomorrow we will start on the 24th. If we start on the 24th we will still host a mission but it will not be one you be flying in the campaign.

Osprey 06-12-2012 01:53 PM

Hmmmm. I put in an average as asked and I was conservative with it. Had I known we had fixed names I would've just put in more.

I am understanding that it is fixed names?

EDIT: You mentioned Quota. OK, so we have a quota (501, 401 & 64 - we are all ACG pilots but with sub-tags). I don't have a problem with turning my guys away if we exceed that - we can handle that internally in ACG. I just want to confirm that if one week 501 have only 5 guys and 401 have 7 then one of theirs can take our slot that's all. I can see you just don't want things screwed up as a total and that's understandable.

5./JG27.Farber 06-12-2012 02:08 PM

The list as I have explained before is so that the appropriate permissions can be set, for example, axis, allies, allied squadron leader, axis staffelkapitan. This is so they can view the correct parts of the forums and so that only leaders can discuss things in the officers forum for red and blue respectivley.

It is an administerial check list for permissions.


For numbers in the server its up to that squadron leader to ensure he has not exceeded his quota and is taking up slots intended for other people.

This brings me back once again to what I was explaining before, the campaign was designed around 99 players. We have 103 people saying they are comming to each mission. We all know that some will not attend, surely this number will be greater than 4% which we are hoping for so no one gets left out. I expect the actual non attendance to be around 20% minimum. I am sure Osprey there will be enough room for everyone. ;)

EDIT to your edit. Yes as long as the "swapping" does not get out of hand its fine.


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