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-   -   Speed graphs for Spitfire and Hurricane (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=31450)

Insuber 05-08-2012 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper (Post 421464)
Hi Klem,

Here's what I got yesterday for the Spit Ia at sea level:

6.5 lbs, 2800 rpms: 245 online, 249 offline
6.5 lbs, 3000 rpms: 252 online, 253 offline

May I ask how does it compare with historical test data?

Winger 05-08-2012 10:12 AM

ATAG Combatreport
 
OK Guys. I cannot tell about the Hurricane. But yesterday on ATAG i had a fight against a Spitfire in my E4. First at like 2000m height. I dove away trying to extend and gain distance. Then on the deck was hardly able to outrun her, I realized he obviously lost sight and flew like 150m beside me, same height, seemingly same speed. I made the error, hoped he didnt see me and turned in to engage. Sadly he WAS aware i was aware of my position, outturned me and in no time was on my 6. I tried to run, scissor but nothing helped. He emptied his guns on me and I managed to crashland in england. So PLEASE. I you guys keep moaning about allied planes being too weak this will become another ROF germans slaughterfest.

Winger

41Sqn_Banks 05-08-2012 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 421750)
But yesterday on ATAG i had a fight against a Spitfire in my E4. ...

Was it a Spitfire I or Spitfire II?

Winger 05-08-2012 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks (Post 421757)
Was it a Spitfire I or Spitfire II?

Sorry he had no skin saying so and i am not yet as trained to see the diffrences between the two. Especially not at 700 km/h and in the heat of battle.

Winger

ElAurens 05-08-2012 12:33 PM

Guys, as we all know, online combat reports are meaningless in discussions of aircraft performance numbers.

Even real pilots are very poor judges of another aircraft's speed and energy state.

ATAG_Snapper 05-08-2012 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insuber (Post 421747)
May I ask how does it compare with historical test data?

Hi Insuber,

Top speed for the Ia at sea level should be 283 IAS at full overboost at 3000 rpms (before the engine blows up LOL). If the boost control cut out functioned as it should in this sim and provided another short-term emergency speed boost of 25 mph, (253 + 25 = 278 mph), we'd actually be within 5 mph of Real Life data. IMHO, of course. :grin:

ATAG_Snapper 05-08-2012 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 421763)
Sorry he had no skin saying so and i am not yet as trained to see the diffrences between the two. Especially not at 700 km/h and in the heat of battle.

Winger

Hi Winger,

If you have a chat window open which is also receiving Server Messages (you can do this in Customize Windows in-game) you can see the announcement of your demise - including who shot you down flying which aircraft. It can be easy to miss though, in the heat of the action, especially if the messages are scrolling fast on a busy night.

Winger 05-08-2012 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper (Post 421849)
Hi Winger,

If you have a chat window open which is also receiving Server Messages (you can do this in Customize Windows in-game) you can see the announcement of your demise - including who shot you down flying which aircraft. It can be easy to miss though, in the heat of the action, especially if the messages are scrolling fast on a busy night.

Thanks. I know but missed to look. I was busy bringin my cripopled plane to the ground and staying alive while doing so:)

Winger

ATAG_Snapper 05-08-2012 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winger (Post 421858)
Thanks. I know but missed to look. I was busy bringin my cripopled plane to the ground and staying alive while doing so:)

Winger

Been there, done that X 1000! LOL

It was likely a Spit IIa, based on your report. They've been "detuned" from the 1.5950 retail version, but they're still a threat, obviously.

What I'm hoping is that someone will do some in-game tests of the 109 (whatever models) just to see what their top IAS is at sea level. I've noticed the online (ATAG Server) FM differs from the offline FM on the IIa at higher altitudes (5,000 & 10,000 feet), don't know if the 109 Ex is affected this way as well. I don't have sufficient stick time on the 109 to do it justice.

In fact, my tests were a one-trial-only wonder series, so my data is certainly open for challenge. I have no ego/agenda other than I personally would like to see ALL RAF/LW aircraft modelled accurately in CoD. So far my findings at sea level jives closely with a couple of other members here, but I don't think anyone has done a direct comparison between online & offline FM's at higher altitudes.

BTW, I was downed by IvanK last night high over an AI formation of Wellies flying towards France. I was about 16K in my invincable Spitfire IIa and upsun of the formation I was protecting, ready to pounce on any unwary 109 coming in to attack 'em. What could possibly go wrong? Until my starboard wing suddenly got holed, my controls went slack, and the cockpit turned red. And my parachute failed to open......:evil:

Insuber 05-08-2012 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper (Post 421847)
Hi Insuber,

Top speed for the Ia at sea level should be 283 IAS at full overboost at 3000 rpms (before the engine blows up LOL). If the boost control cut out functioned as it should in this sim and provided another short-term emergency speed boost of 25 mph, (253 + 25 = 278 mph), we'd actually be within 5 mph of Real Life data. IMHO, of course. :grin:

Hi Snapper - thank you! Do you refer to the 6.25 lbs or the 12 lbs boost?

Cheers,
Ins

ATAG_Snapper 05-08-2012 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insuber (Post 421877)
Hi Snapper - thank you! Do you refer to the 6.25 lbs or the 12 lbs boost?

Cheers,
Ins

12 lbs boost

I figure top speed is top speed ie. balls out full throttle-through-the-gate-gonna-catch-that-yellow-nosed-bastage top speed....even if it's only gonna last 5 minutes on a good day. :grin:

Others more learned than I (and there's lots of THEM!) may differ, and so be it. Me? I just wanna shoot 109's. Oh, and 110's, too. :-P

41Sqn_Banks 05-08-2012 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insuber (Post 421877)
Hi Snapper - thank you! Do you refer to the 6.25 lbs or the 12 lbs boost?

Cheers,
Ins

He means that if we would have +12 boost in-game, which would add 25mph to the +6.25 in-game speed, the in-game speed at +12 boost would be within 5mph of the real life +6.25 boost.

ATAG_Snapper 05-08-2012 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks (Post 421885)
He means that if we would have +12 boost in-game, which would add 25mph to the +6.25 in-game speed, the in-game speed at +12 boost would be within 5mph of the real life +6.25 boost.

Thanks, Banks! That's what I meant to say! :)

Insuber 05-08-2012 02:06 PM

In terms of performance I find also the Bf-110 C-7 a bit too slow. I can't exceed 420-430 Km/h @ s.l., no payload, with 50% fuel, rads full open. From the Internet I find for the C-4 (same DB 601N 1200 hp engines, theconly difference being the bomb racks):

Bf 110C-4 - Maximum Speed: 294mph (473km/h) at sea level, 349mph (561km/h) at 7,000 metres (22,965 feet)
Cruise Speed: 217-262mph (349-422km/h)
Time to 5,500 metres (18,045 feet): 8 minutes
Service Ceiling: 9,754 metres (32,000 feet)
Range: 565 miles (909 kilometres)

Source:

www.airgalore.co.uk/vault/bf110.html

Cheers!

Insuber 05-08-2012 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper (Post 421884)
12 lbs boost

I figure top speed is top speed ie. balls out full throttle-through-the-gate-gonna-catch-that-yellow-nosed-bastage top speed....even if it's only gonna last 5 minutes on a good day. :grin:

Others more learned than I (and there's lots of THEM!) may differ, and so be it. Me? I just wanna shoot 109's. Oh, and 110's, too. :-P

LOL! With dangerous maniacs like you in circulation I would reduce the Spit's speed even a little more then! :-D

ATAG_Snapper 05-08-2012 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insuber (Post 421889)
In terms of performance I find also the Bf-110 C-7 a bit too slow. I can't exceed 420-430 Km/h @ s.l., no payload, with 50% fuel, rads full open. From the Internet I find for the C-4 (same DB 601N 1200 hp engines, theconly difference being the bomb racks):

Bf 110C-4 - Maximum Speed: 294mph (473km/h) at sea level, 349mph (561km/h) at 7,000 metres (22,965 feet)
Cruise Speed: 217-262mph (349-422km/h)
Time to 5,500 metres (18,045 feet): 8 minutes
Service Ceiling: 9,754 metres (32,000 feet)
Range: 565 miles (909 kilometres)

Source:

www.airgalore.co.uk/vault/bf110.html

Cheers!

That's not good. I have no hard data in front of me, but my impressions of the 110 are that if it jettisons its load it was tough for RAF fighter to catch. And if they did it it was no pushover -- it had huge firepower (including a rear gunner) and speed, but not as maneuverable as a single seat fighter.

Sounds like the 110, as modelled in this sim, should be 40 - 50 kmh faster at sea level.

Kwiatek 05-08-2012 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insuber (Post 421889)
In terms of performance I find also the Bf-110 C-7 a bit too slow. I can't exceed 420-430 Km/h @ s.l., no payload, with 50% fuel, rads full open. From the Internet I find for the C-4 (same DB 601N 1200 hp engines, theconly difference being the bomb racks):

Bf 110C-4 - Maximum Speed: 294mph (473km/h) at sea level, 349mph (561km/h) at 7,000 metres (22,965 feet)
Cruise Speed: 217-262mph (349-422km/h)
Time to 5,500 metres (18,045 feet): 8 minutes
Service Ceiling: 9,754 metres (32,000 feet)
Range: 565 miles (909 kilometres)

Source:

www.airgalore.co.uk/vault/bf110.html

Cheers!

Dont think such suorce is reliable for Bf 110 C-4 both for ground level speed and FTH speed.

Look here:

http://i47.tinypic.com/2ui7z9g.jpg

and here

http://i46.tinypic.com/34j836h.gif

Insuber 05-08-2012 09:17 PM

Thank you Kwiatek.

BTW, I've tested on ATAG the story that the Emil now turns inside Spits: it's not true, from my humble point of view.

I got behind a Spit IIa while on my E-4, and when he turned I tried to follow it on purpose. Well, despite I'm not a novice 109 pilot, Pomidor303 was in an advantage position scoring hits in less than 2 turns, and then only some scissors and the low light of the dawn saved me.

Ah BTW the sound radar is still there, when reds canopies are open :-)


Cheers!

Insuber 05-08-2012 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwiatek (Post 422139)
Dont think such suorce is reliable for Bf 110 C-4 both for ground level speed and FTH speed.

Look here:

http://i47.tinypic.com/2ui7z9g.jpg

and here

http://i46.tinypic.com/34j836h.gif

Your first graph refers to the DB 601A, with some 100 hp less IIRC. Speed at s.l. matches the C-7 in-game, but the latter has a DB601N rated at 1200 hp. The second graph is just an estimate based on the "drag and power". It gives only 3-4 km/h more to the C-7 against the C-1/2 for 9% more power ... just 1% more speed ... not a great interpolation imho ... :)

Kwiatek 05-08-2012 09:28 PM

Unfortunately still besides Spitfire MK II ( 87 octan version) most fighters are off in speed performance. British fighters are even lack in speed for 87 octan version - the most hurted now is Hurricane. Im not sure - didnt check before beta patch but it seemed for me that Hurricane was more accurate then now. Just 109 E was too slow.

So i think 1C has still a lot work to do here.

The same like with some flying characterstisic of some planes.

Example im sure that 109 E slats open at too low speed at too low angle of attack. In straight fly with idle power slats open below 150 km/h when it should open according to British test at 111 mph/180 km/h ASI.

Kwiatek 05-08-2012 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insuber (Post 422186)
Your first graph refers to the DB 601A, with some 100 hp less IIRC. Speed at s.l. matches the C-7 in-game, but the latter has a DB601N rated at 1200 hp. The second graph is just an estimate based on the "drag and power". It gives only 3-4 km/h more to the C-7 against the C-1/2 for 9% more power ... just 1% more speed ... not a great interpolation imho ... :)

Well it is more complicated that you think :)

You need to compare power curves for both 601A and 601N etc. Also i dont know what engine is used for 109 C in game. Most 110 C used Db601 engine and some used 601N but what i remember there were jabo version with bomb racks which cut some speed expecially at low alts ( with densy air). 601N had more adventage at high alts over 601A then at lower alts.

Insuber 05-08-2012 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwiatek (Post 422191)
Well it is more complicated that you think :)

You need to compare power curves for both 601A and 601N etc. Also i dont know what engine is used for 109 C in game. Most 110 C used Db601 engine and some used 601N but what i remember there were jabo version with bomb racks which cut some speed expecially at low alts ( with densy air). 601N had more adventage at high alts over 601A then at lower alts.

Eheheh I'm an engineer by education I'm more complicate than you think :)

I refer to the C-7 variant, which should be entirely equipped with the 1200 hp DB601N, three/blade propeller, rising the payload from 500 kg to 1000 kg (two 500 kg bombs).

Given that the speed / drag relationship is quadratic, and the thrust / speed is *broadly speaking* cubic, I doubt that 9% more power gives only <1% more speed. But I can be wrong ... :D

Kwiatek 05-08-2012 10:27 PM

You have to note that from calculated speed graph for different 110 C variants yellow curve is for 601N 30-minut engine power and grey curve is for 601A 5-minut emergency power :)

Insuber 05-08-2012 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwiatek (Post 422233)
You have to note that from calculated speed graph for different 110 C variants yellow curve is for 601N 30-minut engine power and grey curve is for 601A 5-minut emergency power :)

Then I notice also that the first graph, taken from the 110 HandBuch, which should be the DB601A at normal boost, shows the same performance for the C-1 of the grey curve in the second graph, which is the DB601A with emergency power. I see another contradiction here of the interpolated curves, don't you think so?

Kwiatek 05-08-2012 11:21 PM

First graph from handbuch show speed at 1.3 Ata power - 5 minutes emergency but with old supercharger ( 4.0 km).

Blue and black line in second graph are for 30 minut power - 1.23 Ata. Grey line in second graph is for 1.3 Ata - 5 minutes emergency power but with new supercharger ( 4.5 km).

Worth to looke here:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...ces-11171.html

and here:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...nce-16139.html

As always devil is in details :P

Insuber 05-08-2012 11:27 PM

Ok thanks! The first graph had no details, so the devil was well hidden ... :-)


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