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BlackBerry 08-08-2012 07:51 AM

diving extension/pitch-back
 
Quote:

With an inferior aircraft, victory in one-versus-one combat must come
through superior tactics and better technique. Because energy tactics are
so much more complex than angles tactics, they tend to magnify variations
in pilot ability. This is one reason energy tactics are recommended
for this scenario. Another factor is the increased time involved. Besides
prolonging the agony, energy techniques may allow the pilot of the inferior
184 ONE-VERSUS-ONE MANEUVERING, DISSIMILAR AIRCRAFT
fighter to hold the opponent off until he loses interest or is forced to
withdraw for fuel considerations. The high-G descending nose-to-tail turn
is ideal for this purpose. If the opponent is equipped with RQ missiles, this
tactic may allow the pilot of the inferior fighter to hold the bogey just far
enough off the tail to prevent a weapons firing while he unexpectedly
reduces power or uses speedbrakes to slow down and thereby generate
rapid closure with the opponent. Then at the critical moment he can make
a break turn toward the bogey to produce an overshoot. If the bogey pilot
does not recognize this ploy soon enough and immediately quarter roll
away and pull up, the inferior fighter may be able to reverse for a cheap
shot. If the bogey does pull up nearly vertically, the defender may have a
chance to unload and accelerate down and away, generating separation to
prolong the fight, or even causing the bogey pilot to lose sight. When the
bogey is gun equipped, the defender should expect a snapshot prior to the
overshoot and be prepared to defeat it with a sharp, out-of-plane jink.
Climbing extension/pitch-back tactics cannot be expected to work for
the inferior fighter in this scenario, since the opponent has a P s advantage.
The other energy tactics discussed, which are intended to bleed the bogey's
energy with a nose-to-tail turn (or nose-to-nose in the case of a very small
bogey or one equipped with all-aspect missiles), can still be effective
against an inexperienced or a careless opponent.
The following episode, found in Thunderbolt! by the World War II
USAAF ace Robert S. Johnson, is one of the best examples available of the
use of energy tactics (diving extension/pitch-back) to defeat a doublesuperior
opponent. The encounter described is a mock combat engagement over England between Johnson (P-47C) and an unidentified RAF pilot
in a new Spitfire IX. The Spitfire had about a 25 percent better power
loading and nearly a 25 percent lower wing loading. The Thunderbolt's
only performance advantages were faster top speed, greater acceleration in
a dive (because of the P-47's heavier weight and higher density), and better
roll performance. (See the Appendix for a discussion of roll and acceleration
performance.) Johnson, undoubtedly one of the greatest natural
fighter pilots of all time, used his roll performance defensively to allow
himself the chance to build an energy advantage in a diving extension.
We flew together in formation, and then I decided to see just what this
airplane had to its credit.
I opened the throttle full and the Thunderbolt forged ahead. A moment
later exhaust smoke poured from the Spit as the pilot came after me. He
couldn't make it; the big Jug had a definite speed advantage. I grinned
happily; I'd heard so much about this airplane that I really wanted to show off
the Thunderbolt to her pilot. The Jug kept pulling away from the Spitfire;
suddenly I hauled back on the stick and lifted the nose. The Thunderbolt
zoomed upward, soaring into the cloud-flecked sky. I looked out and back;
the Spit was straining to match me, and barely able to hold his position.
But my advantage was only the zoom—once in steady climb, he had me. I
gaped as smoke poured from the exhausts and the Spitfire shot past me as if
I were standing still. Could that plane climb! He tore upward in a climb I
couldn't match in the Jug. Now it was his turn; the broad elliptical wings
rolled, swung around, and the Spit screamed in, hell-bent on chewing me up.
ONE-VERSUS-ONE MANEUVERING, DISSIMILAR AIRCRAFT 185
This was going to be fun. I knew he could turn inside the heavy Thunderbolt;
if I attempted to hold a tight turn the Spitfire would slip right inside me.
I knew, also, that he could easily outclimb my fighter. I stayed out of those
sucker traps. First rule in this kind of a fight: don't fight the way your
opponent fights best. No sharp turns; don't climb; keep him at your own
level.
We were at 5,000 feet, the Spitfire skidding around hard and coming in on
my tail. No use turning; he'd whip right inside me as if I were a truck loaded
with cement, and snap out in firing position. Well, I had a few tricks, too. The
P-47 was faster, and I threw the ship into a roll. Right here I had him. The Jug
could outroll any plane in the air, bar none. With my speed, roll was my only
advantage, and I made full use of the manner in which the Thunderbolt could
whirl. I kicked the Jug into a wicked left roll, horizon spinning crazily, once,
twice, into a third. As he turned to the left to follow, I tramped down on the
right rudder, banged the stick over to the right. Around and around we went,
left, right, left, right. I could whip through better than two rolls before the
Spitfire even completed his first. And this killed his ability to turn inside me.
I just refused to turn. Every time he tried to follow me in a roll, I flashed away
to the opposite side, opening the gap between our two planes.
Then I played the trump. The Spitfire was clawing wildly through the air,
trying to follow me in a roll, when I dropped the nose. The Thunderbolt
howled and ran for earth. Barely had the Spitfire started to follow—and I was a
long way ahead of him by now—when I jerked back on the stick and threw the
Jug into a zoom climb. In a straight or turning climb, the British ship had the
advantage. But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter
that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. Before the
Spit pilot knew what had happened, I was high above him, the Thunderbolt
hammering around. And that was it—for in the next few moments the
Spitfire flier was amazed to see a less maneuverable, slower-climbing Thunderbolt
rushing straight at him, eight guns pointed ominously at his cockpit.
LOL,for a P47C, could easily dive from spitfireIX, extend s far away,and zoom up out of spitfireIX shooting range, and fight back using enough energy advantage which is built up during high speed zoom period.

Low altitude, 1 vs 1, boom&zoom, easily solve the spitfire@your 6. It sounds impossible for Il2 FM.

RegRag1977 08-08-2012 09:21 AM

I would like to see that il Il2 too
 
Interesting read from "Fighter Combat" by Shaw.

It could indeed be nice to have two ace pilots from our community to fly and record the engagement such as described in your post to show other less skilled pilots how to fight with the Jug (in the IL2 1946 environment and at the same altitudes). I'm sure it would be very instructive.

BlackBerry 08-09-2012 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RegRag1977 (Post 452921)
Interesting read from "Fighter Combat" by Shaw.

It could indeed be nice to have two ace pilots from our community to fly and record the engagement such as described in your post to show other less skilled pilots how to fight with the Jug (in the IL2 1946 environment and at the same altitudes). I'm sure it would be very instructive.

Yes. but I doubt that P47C could beat spitfire IX at low alt in il2.

Pursuivant 08-09-2012 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBerry (Post 453259)
Yes. but I doubt that P47C could beat spitfire IX at low alt in il2.

Possibly, maybe.

Quick combat in IL2: 1 Ace Spitfire LF IXc vs. 1 Ace P-47D-10, 2000 meters, Normandy map. ~20 trials with AI on for both planes.

P-47D-10/Spitfire wins about 45% of the time, with about 10% double-kills.

But, the only time the P-47 wins is if it takes out the Spitfire in the first head-on pass. If the Spit survives the first pass with its engine running, it wins the fight.

As always, even Ace AI shows a suicidal tendency towards head-on passes against well-armed foes. AI P-47 pilots almost never use the plane's superior roll rate to make barrel rolls - just aileron rolls. Also, they never use the plane's superior speed to extend range to break off the fight or "drag the fight upstairs" where the jug would have the advantage.

That aside, if there were two human opponents facing off, and they were both smart enough to avoid head-on passes, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

But, that might just be realistic. In the historical dogfight described above, Shaw refers to Robert Johnson as "one of the greatest natural fighter pilots" while we don't know how good the Spitfire pilot was.

Also, it was a mock dogfight, so there was no damage. The Spitfire was in a position to take shots which could have ended the fight before Johnson was able to get into firing position.

So, realistically, in a maneuver fight at low altitude, the Spitfire's superior overall maneuverability, climb rate and cannon armament might give it the edge over the jug's slightly better speed, zoom climb and roll rate.

BlackBerry 08-10-2012 12:02 AM

Quote:

But, that might just be realistic. In the historical dogfight described above, Shaw refers to Robert Johnson as "one of the greatest natural fighter pilots" while we don't know how good the Spitfire pilot was.
1)P47C, not P47D. AI is stupid.
2) when P47C begins to dive, even a rockie pilot of spitfire could push full forward throttle with 3000rpm engine. A ace for spitfire? no help.

3) in Il2, you even can not extend to a safe distance beyond spitfire IX shoot range if both have similar initial energy. Leave alone "Pitch back".

BlackBerry 08-10-2012 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBerry (Post 453407)
1)P47C, not P47D. AI is stupid.

2) when P47C begins to dive/zoom, even a rockie pilot of spitfire could push full forward throttle with 3000rpm engine. A ace for spitfire? no help.

3) in Il2, you even can not extend to a safe distance beyond spitfire IX shoot range if both have similar initial energy. Leave alone "Pitch back".


Quote:

But, that might just be realistic. In the historical dogfight described above, Shaw refers to Robert Johnson as "one of the greatest natural fighter pilots" while we don't know how good the Spitfire pilot was.

Also, it was a mock dogfight, so there was no damage. The Spitfire was in a position to take shots which could have ended the fight before Johnson was able to get into firing position.
Johnson said
Quote:

But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. because of the P-47's heavier weight and higher density.
Don't forget spitfire cut short way to pursuit P47C when p47 zooming up.(45 degree? 60 degree?), and couldn't get closer. That's enough.

If I am the P47C pilot caught by a spitfire IX below 5000ft(1500m) alt, the first step is "dive extend" to 800-1000m safe distance, at this time, both are near deck. Then I begin to zoom carefully keeping spitfire IX from entering 500m shooting range. Is that possible? Johnson said spitfire can't get closer. LOL . Finally, when I begin to hammer around, I should be out of spit shoot range, 600m? Furthermore, this is not only 600m distance, but also 600m higher. Only with this energy advantage, could I turn back and point my guns to spitfire. Isn't it? If I get only 200-300m higher, I can barely turn back to spitfire.

When P47C vs SpitIX mock combat(1942late -1943 mid), there was no Tempest. In 1944, allied knew that Tempest could outdive/outzoom P47 slightly/somehow.

BTW, spitfire IX F,HF, even LF could outclimb P47C/D-early at high altitude,ie 8000m high. :) Funny. Of course, P47Dlate P47M/N is another story, P47M =Spitfire XIV @climb high alt.

IceFire 08-10-2012 12:24 AM

Whats your pull up angle? Maybe you're pulling up too sharply and he's cutting the corner. It's a common mistake. I use this in turn fighters all the time... any time someone pulls a dive with a zoom pull up they cut it too tightly and that's where I have them... if they were smarter they would have easily out zoomed me and pulled away.

BlackBerry 08-10-2012 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceFire (Post 453411)
Whats your pull up angle? Maybe you're pulling up too sharply and he's cutting the corner. It's a common mistake. I use this in turn fighters all the time... any time someone pulls a dive with a zoom pull up they cut it too tightly and that's where I have them... if they were smarter they would have easily out zoomed me and pulled away.

Agree. Dive angle, zoom angle. The most important factor of a"dive extend/pitch back" tactic is ANGLE.

I think 45 degree or so dive/zoom is usually fine, but that depends on initial energy difference/distance etc. Just be careful, if your a/c has the dive/zoom advantage, you will finally hold the energy, that's energy fight.

IceFire 08-10-2012 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBerry (Post 453412)
Agree. Dive angle, zoom angle. The most important factor of a"dive extend/pitch back" tactic is ANGLE.

I think 45 degree or so dive/zoom is usually fine, but that depends on initial energy difference/distance etc. Just be careful, if your a/c has the dive/zoom advantage, you will finally hold the energy, that's energy fight.

45 degrees? I would say (although I don't actually measure) that mine are more like 30 degrees. A proper zoom to extend fully away and out of gun range before I tighten the zoom slightly before again letting it off as the energy decreases.

Modify your technique.. see if it helps. Maybe it will.

BlackBerry 08-10-2012 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceFire (Post 453423)
45 degrees? I would say (although I don't actually measure) that mine are more like 30 degrees. A proper zoom to extend fully away and out of gun range before I tighten the zoom slightly before again letting it off as the energy decreases.

Modify your technique.. see if it helps. Maybe it will.

It seems that il2 fm couldn't guarantee you beat a spitfire IX in your P47C, 1 vs 1. Zooming at 30 degree? 45 degree? Neither works.


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