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major.kudo 11-28-2013 03:13 PM

I have a request about fighters AI.

I think AI fighters gun shooting is too exact. I think that is not "average" pilot.
Now, AI fighters are hit by other AIs shoot Before maneuver.
Usually AIs maneuver is too late. And attacking AIs shots are too exact.
Therefore, If 16*P-51Ds VS 16*Bf-109s fight, only 5 to 6 planes survive slightly.
Other 25 planes are crash.
I think this is not "average" air combat.
I have some books about air combat. But such a battle is not indicated.

So, I request more poor gun shooting fighters AI.

I am Japanese. Sorry my poor English.

Pursuivant 11-28-2013 11:51 PM


Originally Posted by Pursuivant (Post 511518)
Since AI has gotten so much more human, I'd love to see more AI levels: "untrained" and "superhuman."

To follow up on my thread, I've recently learned that from 41 until about 1944, Soviet pilot training was terrible.

Due to lack of fuel and planes, many pilots only got about 9-10 hours TOTAL flying time in transitional or advanced trainers and that concentrated just on takeoffs and landings. Acrobatics were prohibited because it increased the risk of accidents.

Nominally, pilots got 20-55 hours of advanced training in type (per central planning documents here (in Spanish):

English translation:

In 41- to early 43, many pilots got NO training time in the type of aircraft they were to fly into combat. The luckier ones might have a few hours of familiarization training with their unit.

They got NO training in deflection shooting, much less shooting at aerial targets.

That speaks to a need to either: a) Nerf Rookie AI even more than it already is, b) create a new class of AI pilot below Rookie, as I have proposed.

While I understand the difficulties of AI programming, I think it would be a relatively easy task to create "untrained" level AI.

1) Make it so they don't lead their targets at all, start shooting at twice the appropriate range, and make sure that their cone of dispersion (or whatever) is 25-50% greater than Rookie level AI.

2) Give them virtually no spotting ability outside their 315-45 degree forward arc (i.e., anything outside of 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock).

3) Give them a 2-3 second delay in responding defensively to attacks from behind.

4) In combat, they use the pre-4.12 Rookie AI model. Additionally, they will only use horizontal "turn and burn" tactics, regularly using energy-bleeding high speed turns that result in loss of airspeed and high speed stalls.

5) If assigned as wingmen, they will blindly stick to their leader, not maneuvering defensively if fired upon, and always playing "follow the leader" - not adapting their maneuvers to the leader's movements (i.e., always following the leader rather than swinging wide or slowing to avoid stalling in a turn or split-s or leading the leader to catch up to the leader and keep station after he turns).

By contrast, in the ETO Western Allied pilots were consistently better trained, except for Early to Mid 1940 when the UK rushed some very inexperienced pilots into the BoB (with 10-20 hours flight time in type). To my mind, this is what Rookie AI levels actually represent.

Luftwaffe pilots were, on average, well trained until JUL 43 with hours of flight time equivalent to rookie US and UK pilots. After that, flight hours fell to the equivalent of what Soviet pilots were getting, although Luftwaffe student pilots still got some aerobatic and gunnery training until the basic training program was shut down in mid-44.

Data here (taken from a table so slight errors are possible):

SEP 39-42

DE total flight hours: 240 hours
DE total operational flight hours (fighter): 90 hours
UK total flight hours: 200 hours
UK total operational flight hours (fighter): 50 hours

OCT 42 - JUN 43

DE tot.: 200 h
DE tot. ops (ftr): 50 h
UK tot.: 340 h
UK tot. ops (ftr): 70 h
US tot: 275
US tot. ops (ftr): 75 h

JUL 43- JUN 44
DE tot.: 175 h
DE tot. ops (ftr): 20 h
UK tot.: 330 h
UK tot. ops (ftr): 70 h
US tot: 325 h
US tot. ops (ftr): 120 h

JUL 44- MAY 45
DE tot.: 120 h
DE tot. ops (ftr): 10 h
UK tot.: 330 h
UK tot. ops (ftr): 90 h
US tot: 390 h
US tot. ops (ftr): 170 h

Data taken from here - site login required to view attachment:

Detailed breakdown of Luftwaffe pilot training hours here:

nic727 11-29-2013 06:41 PM

The new update is awesome. That's what I saw :

- New bombing change that looking awesome!
- New aircraft sound (?)
- New camera for bombs, rockets and torpedo (that will be amazing for mini-movie)
- New sound for explosion

4.13m will be amazing!

DD_crash 11-29-2013 06:46 PM

Very interesting update :)

FlyingShark 11-29-2013 07:14 PM

Indeed, very interesting.


Pursuivant 11-29-2013 09:38 PM

Very cool! Lots of minor much asked for changes. Thank you!

As an additional idea, since it is now possible to drop/shoot single rockets, bombs or torpedos, would it be possible to have failure to release?

That is, faulty triggers to fire rockets, or faulty release mechanisms for bombs and torpedoes.

Dauntless1 11-29-2013 09:52 PM

Would probably be the only map I would fly!! :cool:


Originally Posted by ben_wh (Post 511511)
Would love to learn more about the status of the New Guinea/New Britain map that we have heard of for years.

This map, if made in the same quality as the Solomons maps, can be the centerpiece of 4.13 - at least in the PTO perspective.


majorfailure 11-29-2013 10:08 PM

New bomb release modes, great. No more accidentally releasing the big bang on a single truck, or accidentally releasing the small ones in a big target -and having to fly back to drop the main course.

New explosion sounds? Sound cool -and thats on headphones.
And are the engine sounds the future stock ones?
Does all parameters online are the same for all players mean that there will be no more delay between visible explosion and real explosion of delay timed bombs?

And last can we have the patch for this christmas?:grin::grin::grin:

Pursuivant 11-29-2013 11:27 PM


Originally Posted by major.kudo (Post 511640)
I think AI fighters gun shooting is too exact. I think that is not "average" pilot.

Before 4.13, Ace pilots had near perfect gunnery skills. With the 4.13 patch I'm seeing AI at all levels shoot longer bursts without correcting their aim - even at Ace level. Human players can observe whether their gunfire hits and correct their aim or stop shooting if it's obvious that they can't hit a target (e.g., too far away, not enough lead on the target).

I'm also seeing AI shots that miss pass to either side of a target, but not above or below it, which means that AI might still be correcting for the ballistics of their weapons to an unrealistic degree.

But, when AI hits, there doesn't seem to be as much dispersion of gunfire as there might be and they don't tend to make improper corrections for deflection shots that result in subsequent shots missing.


Originally Posted by major.kudo (Post 511640)
Therefore, If 16*P-51Ds VS 16*Bf-109s fight, only 5 to 6 planes survive slightly. Other 25 planes are crash. I think this is not "average" air combat.

I agree. This makes for better game play, but situations where one or both sides suffered massive losses in a dogfight were, historically, very rare. And, of course, historically you never had 32 Ace pilots fighting each other.


Originally Posted by major.kudo (Post 511640)
So, I request more poor gun shooting fighters AI.

I'm not sure it's the gunnery model thats at fault, but the level of aggression.

Rookie or Average pilots should be quite reluctant to attack large formations of enemy planes unless they have a clear advantage (i.e., from above and to the rear of the target). They should shoot from too far away and break off the attack too soon.

Also, AI at any level is much better at maintaining "situational awareness" of multiple aircraft than humans are.

Realistically, any Veteran or better pilot should try to exit the "furball " (mass turning dogfight) to gain better Situational Awareness, then choose a single target and follow it using B&Z or turn fighting tactics.

This matches the historical tactics of just about every high scoring ace - avoid the furball, orbit above it and pick off enemies who have lost SA from above and behind

At any level of AI, each plane in a dogfight after the first should create an increased chance that AI loses SA with respect to one or more planes. Losing SA with respect to a nearby enemy plane (say within 1 km) should make a Veteran or Ace pilot react defensively, including breaking off an attack unless by continuing the attack would also be a defensive maneuver (i.e., gaining separation from the "lost" enemy plane's last known position).


Originally Posted by major.kudo (Post 511640)
I am Japanese. Sorry my poor English.

I'm American. I don't speak a word of Japanese. There's no need to apologize for having the courage to use a foreign language.

Oscarito 11-30-2013 12:06 AM


Originally Posted by nic727 (Post 511684)
New camera for bombs, rockets and torpedo (that will be amazing for mini-movie)

Wow! Some update video about this feature would be great...

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