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He111 01-07-2011 02:43 PM

excellent, love the fulmar, didn't realise it was so fast! :grin: well fast compared to my Hs 129.

Realistic torpedos is a real pain though, trying to keep height, speed and aim the aircraft .. toooo hard! :(

He111

JG53Frankyboy 01-07-2011 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by He111 (Post 210274)
......................

Realistic torpedos is a real pain though, trying to keep height, speed and aim the aircraft .. toooo hard! :(

He111

fly the SM79, its performance equals perfect its torpedolimits ;)

JG53Frankyboy 01-07-2011 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHartikka (Post 210220)
......................................JU-88[/I] with a curious unknown gun installation pointing from its nose is possibly some special field modification.
[/COLOR]

its a 20mm MG-FF, a very common modification on Ju88s on the easternfront !
like in the ingame Torpedo Ju88s , very they are unfortunatly almost senseless (in game !) :(

i realy wish for a new Ju88 variant , perhaps called "Ju88A-4 mod", with such a MG-FF in the nose (means also NO Lotfe !) , no divebrakes (they were often removed) and overworked bombloadout options (get rid of these 18 and 28 SC50 loadouts, in game only the second bombbay is working. and that carried 10 SC50).
The Cockpit, if im not totaly wrong, could be the same as the torp Ju88 :)

Such equipted Ju88 were VERY common at the easternfront !

EJGr.Ost_Caspar 01-07-2011 04:44 PM

Hi Ritchie!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritchie (Post 210159)
You also admit that the 2 seconds fuse arming time is “a very average number”. In other words, it’s a fancy value, a compromise. So your objective is educational rather than strictly historical. Did I get that right? :o

A compromise, yes. But the intention wasn't 'to teach them right', or such (to get the bad sound out of 'edjucational'). It was rather a logical step, after torpedos got a rework, closer to their historical equivalents, so did the bombs and first thing, that was noticed, was 'there is not fuse arming delay!'. So it was introduced. Thats simply as it is. We didn't expect a discussion like that, really! In fact, I was personally worried by the outcome it would have regarding the gameplay (mission building) and wanted it to be an option. But it wasn't seen as too critical. So desicion was made to have it like it is now.

Quote:

I acknowledge your research work and your good intentions, but mind it’s still a fancy value. You roll over J.Hartikka, a dedicated virtual bomber pilot, who obviously spent some time investigating the subject, without even asking for his credentials or reference material.
Oh, we always ask for, better to say demand reference material if someone wants to point us where we went wrong. That was said already often.

Quote:

You just ignore the questions of Ian Boys, a renowned veteran of the sim, not exactly a dumbhead.
No I didn't. I am just not each day online here. Its not my job. I would go insane, if I read each page myself.
I just try to keep communications up occationally, while most of us are too busy with the interim patch. I just am not very good at it, as I have no clue about most issues.
I try to transport a bit of our intern thinkings/discussions to here. I cannot talk about everything of course.
This discussion is already on three places with voluminous postings and its quite hard to follow.
I know Ian very well (guess he knows me too), I know he is a capable fellow and I didn't meant to ignore him. Even more, as he got an answer by 1.JaVA_Sjonnie, which I find quite adequate.



Quote:

Let’s take the example of dive bombing and do a bit of physical calculation:
Let’s assume a moderate dive angle of 45° and a speed of 500 km/h.
...Well, if you allow me to skip the mathematical details, here’s the result: 197 meters, roughly 200 meters minimum height for “dropping the egg”.
My in-game tests have confirmed this very limit. Of course it is considerably higher for steeper dive angles and higher speeds, getting close to 500 m for an assumed 90° dive.

That sounds quite realistic. If I remember correctly, dropping height in Ju87 was ~500-1000m. So with 200m you are on the extrem lowest edge of what is possible, but still...



Quote:


But then, you’re giving away the advantages of this approach altogether, i.e.
A) high precision on target
B) low vulnerability to enemy flak
C) the element of surprise

Sure. Advantages, that real pilots didn't have. Not as it was in game.
I am well aware, why it was so favoured by many virtual pilots. ;)
People were used to be able to sink large ships alone. Its no longer this way.
It wasn't directly intended, but as an automatic result, it is quite good.

Disadvantage now is, that its not correct for a few types of bombs (mostly small and smallest), for some its not historical at all, as there were types, that didn't have the possibility for fuse arming at all.
However, you could have all your mentioned advantages back, if fuse arming times would be correct for indivial bomb types, but still you wouldn't be able to sink ships alone, because they are simply too small to sink them in one run.

Quote:

From a logical point of view, there’s nothing to gain in such a long fuse arming time if you already have a 1.5 or 2 seconds delay set in the triggering mechanism....
What has all this got to do with the fuse arming time? :???:
Maybe there is something to it that I am not aware of, I don’t know...
Its a security installation. I can imagine more than one situation, where its logical/practical to have. Individual nations wouldn't have invented and used it, if it was for nothing. :)
We didn't invent it for the game, it was already there back then.


Quote:

The really interesting thing here is what was actually done on the front in WW II. So many examples show us that this was two different pair of shoes.
Thats why we use, what we have. Paper is the best ressource we have, maybe its not THE best, but better than guesses. If there are better ressources, we use them. (BTW: show me a valid photograph of a Hs129B-3 with a ZFR 3 B or test results scans and you'll get one!)

Quote:

The issue is where the critical downward limit was and whether or not this limit was dictated by a 2 second fuse arming time.
Of course it was not! Its a compromise.
Maybe we will refine it, but thats out of my knowledge currently.

EJGr.Ost_Caspar 01-07-2011 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHartikka (Post 210220)
Thank you for detailed answer Caspar! :)


Hi JHartikka!

Thanks for your posting. I do not feel to be able to answer your (long) posting now equally to Ritchie's, but let me say, I have read it all and as I said, I really welcome players, addicted to bombing (not the usual type of player)!

Thanks also for your interesting stories and the pictures!

Please - if you find any reliable ressource for what finnish pilots used regarding fuse arming time, then don't hesitate to share it.
We are not too proud to recieve convincing material and probably be ablte to change things to a more correct way.

C.

Ventura 01-07-2011 06:04 PM

@JHartikka
Thank you for sharing and posting those photos from your Uncle Toivo. Those personal treasures are always appreciated.

LukeFF 01-07-2011 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar (Post 210319)
If there are better ressources, we use them. (BTW: show me a valid photograph of a Hs129B-3 with a ZFR 3 B or test results scans and you'll get one!)

On a related note, is the B-3 cockpit different from the B-2?

(I don't have Il2 installed on my computer).

Ritchie 01-07-2011 08:27 PM

2 more secs
 
Hi Caspar,

many thanks for your detailed answer. Very much appreciated.
Sorry if I sounded a bit impatient. Of course it’s alright if you take your time, I’d hate to see you go crazy, can understand that... :-x

I gave some points of view on this one 2 seconds issue, I see it’s adressed seriously. Couldn’t demand more.

:idea: We have a huge military history archive here in my home town, one of the biggest in Germany (Militärhistorisches Archiv Freiburg). I’ll go there and see if I can find something relevant about the topic. I don’t promise anything though due to restrictions on my time schedule, and after all, this probably is a case of needles in a haystack.

@J.Hartikka
Thanks for your interesting contribution!

Ave
Ritchie

MadBlaster 01-07-2011 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG53Frankyboy (Post 210305)
its a 20mm MG-FF, a very common modification on Ju88s on the easternfront !
like in the ingame Torpedo Ju88s , very they are unfortunatly almost senseless (in game !) :(

i realy wish for a new Ju88 variant , perhaps called "Ju88A-4 mod", with such a MG-FF in the nose (means also NO Lotfe !) , no divebrakes (they were often removed) and overworked bombloadout options (get rid of these 18 and 28 SC50 loadouts, in game only the second bombbay is working. and that carried 10 SC50).
The Cockpit, if im not totaly wrong, could be the same as the torp Ju88 :)

Such equipted Ju88 were VERY common at the easternfront !

I am curious. Given the new torpedo restrictions w/speed, why would it be an "improvement" to have the divebrake removed from the A-17 model? Anybody?

bf-110 01-07-2011 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by He111 (Post 210274)
excellent, love the fulmar, didn't realise it was so fast! :grin: well fast compared to my Hs 129.

Realistic torpedos is a real pain though, trying to keep height, speed and aim the aircraft .. toooo hard! :(

He111

Found that when I was very excited to sink something...NOT anymore!


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