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FM/DM threads Everything about FM/DM in CoD

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  #41  
Old 09-26-2012, 12:33 AM
NZtyphoon NZtyphoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumpp View Post

For a twin operating on a single engine....

There is not a single twin engine aircraft ever designed that operating on a single engine unintentionally was not an emergency procedure.
The original question was "Is it possible to fly the Bf 110 on one engine?" The answer is yes - it doesn't matter whether it was an emergency procedure or not, it could be done.

Fairey Gannet twin engined, was routinely and deliberately operated on one engine to conserve fuel:


Four engine Lockheed P3 Orion routinely flew with engines stopped and props feathered


Last edited by NZtyphoon; 09-26-2012 at 12:39 AM.
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  #42  
Old 09-26-2012, 12:44 AM
Glider Glider is offline
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These thigs varied. In some situations there is no reason to assume that all twins can fly on one engine. In the Far East in the hot/high conditions beaufighters could not fly on one engine if they had the standard rocket rails fitted (with or without rockets), however they could if they had zero length rails which were just entering service at the end of the war.

Most extreme example has to be the much maligned Nimrod, normal practice was all four engines to get to the patrol area quickly, then patrol on one engine.
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  #43  
Old 09-26-2012, 01:03 AM
NZtyphoon NZtyphoon is offline
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Originally Posted by Glider View Post
These thigs varied. In some situations there is no reason to assume that all twins can fly on one engine. In the Far East in the hot/high conditions beaufighters could not fly on one engine if they had the standard rocket rails fitted (with or without rockets), however they could if they had zero length rails which were just entering service at the end of the war.

Most extreme example has to be the much maligned Nimrod, normal practice was all four engines to get to the patrol area quickly, then patrol on one engine.
Point is that it is a waste of time making sweeping, definitive statements encompassing all aircraft types - there were twin engined aircraft that failed miserably to fly on one engine, including the Avro Manchester and Blackburn Botha.
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  #44  
Old 09-26-2012, 02:55 AM
Jam66es Jam66es is offline
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I would imagine thier training was to put it down asap.

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  #45  
Old 09-26-2012, 03:10 AM
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Crumpp Crumpp is offline
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Quote:
NzTyphoon says:

it doesn't matter whether it was an emergency procedure or not
Sure it does...

Quote:
Jam66esI would imagine thier training was to put it down asap.
Exactly. It is only common sense.
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  #46  
Old 09-26-2012, 03:12 AM
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ACE-OF-ACES ACE-OF-ACES is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam66es View Post
I would imagine their training was to put it down asap.
And that is the problem with the imagination.. Like opinions, everyone has one!

In such cases it is best to stick to the facts over imagination

With that said here is a quote from an actual military trained WWII P-38 pilot..

Who happens to mention a little about his 'training'

Quote:
Captain Stan Richardson:
The airplane was a "dream" on single-engine. While I was instructing in P-38's at Muroc AAF, on occasion the instructor and three students (four ship flight) would each feather the right propeller (remember, only a single generator, and that on the left engine) for a "tail chase" which included loops, slow and barrel rolls, and just generally having a good time. The exercise was to instill confidence in the pilots ability to control the aircraft on one engine.
As you can see..

This single engine training exercise consisted of loops, barrel rolls, etc..

Note the total lack of any mention or indication of having to land ASAP..

As a mater of fact Captain Stan Richardson referred to it as 'generally having a good time'.

Was this the case for all twins?

Nope!

Which is why making sweeping, definitive statements encompassing all twin aircraft types is just silly
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Theres a reason for instrumenting a plane for test..
That being a pilots's 'perception' of what is going on can be very different from what is 'actually' going on.

Last edited by ACE-OF-ACES; 09-26-2012 at 03:36 AM.
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  #47  
Old 09-26-2012, 03:29 AM
NZtyphoon NZtyphoon is offline
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Originally Posted by Crumpp View Post
Sure it does...



Exactly. It is only common sense.
Here we go again - read the original question Crumpp! - Was it possible to fly the Bf 110 on 1 engine? It did not require a long-winded technical explanation, nor did it ask about emergency procedures: In the context of the question asked it did not matter whether flying on one engine was an emergency procedure. Have you got it now?
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  #48  
Old 09-26-2012, 12:24 PM
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Crumpp Crumpp is offline
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Quote:
EMERGENCY OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS
http://www.winthrop.dk/p38op11.html

Like most twins, losing an engine means a ~75% reduction in performance.

Typically, the P-38 cannot hold altitude with gear and flaps extended. The single engine does produce enough excess thrust to overcome the drag.

It is already been show the Bf-110 can operate on a single engine with typical degraded performance.

Quote:
At rated power, 44" Hg. 2,600 rpm, the airplane will barely hold altitude with landing gear extended and flaps up.

Quote:
With landing gear extended the airplane will not hold altitude at any flap extension.
http://www.winthrop.dk/p38op12.html

Here is Jeff Ethel's NTSB report. He died making a single engine approach in a P-38.

http://www.winthrop.dk/ethel1.html

Bob Hoover had a really nice aerobatic routine in a far less capable twin.

Good energy management of your degraded performance is the key to successful single engine operation in a twin.

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Last edited by Crumpp; 09-26-2012 at 12:27 PM.
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  #49  
Old 09-26-2012, 03:47 PM
NZtyphoon NZtyphoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumpp View Post
http://www.winthrop.dk/p38op11.html

Like most twins, losing an engine means a ~75% reduction in performance.

Typically, the P-38 cannot hold altitude with gear and flaps extended. The single engine does produce enough excess thrust to overcome the drag.

It is already been show the Bf-110 can operate on a single engine with typical degraded performance.






http://www.winthrop.dk/p38op12.html

Here is Jeff Ethel's NTSB report. He died making a single engine approach in a P-38.

http://www.winthrop.dk/ethel1.html

Bob Hoover had a really nice aerobatic routine in a far less capable twin.

Good energy management of your degraded performance is the key to successful single engine operation in a twin.


So what is all this palaver meant to prove Crumpp? We get that you consider yourself to be THE No 1 authority on aeronautics, but why persist with a complete dissertation about flying on one engine when the original question simply asked whether it was possible to fly the Messerschmitt Bf 110 on one engine?

Simple answer - yes it was possible. Yes, it could be considered to be an emergency operation, particularly when there were hostile fighters poking around and no, we didn't need Crumpp's lengthy analysis to say it.
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  #50  
Old 09-26-2012, 07:07 PM
kohmelo kohmelo is offline
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So in Cod if one engine is shot off from Bf-110 you should immediately turn it off and feather or coarsen, if unable to feather, the pitch as much as possible? Close all rad on that engine and push other engine to its limit 2400-2600 Rpm?

I might be doing something wrong because every time I push Bf-110 near 2400 rpm i'll burn my engine(s) up.

And little offtopic:

Do I remember wrong that there were a prototype Bf-110 with Counter-rotating propellers? I have some vague memory of reading about problems with weight distribution which cancelled the positive effect of Counter-rotating propellers.
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