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  #61  
Old Yesterday, 06:48 AM
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Storebror Storebror is offline
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Right dimlee.
We've lately adopted the 4.13 AI into the good old Ultrapack 3 which we run on our SAS Gameserver (where we're sporting COOP missions mostly, with lots of AI) and it turned the game into something completely new, where we yet have to figure out all the new moves AI has learned.

majorfailure has a lot of good points there.
What I'm trying to say is that regardless of it's superduper abilities in terms of situational awareness, AI already now sucks bad in many other elements of the fight.
Let me give you a few examples:
  • When AI is outnumbering human players and can keep the fight going, they do a really great job (with 4.13 AI code) to help each other, distribute their planes across human opponents etc., all fine, but...
  • When AI is outnumbering human players but a single human player has the fastest plane in the set and can run away from the fight, if he's managing the distance to AI planes (keep it at slightly above 1km, never separate further than 1.5km from the closest opponent), he can group up all AI planes behind him in a big swarm and drag them away to a point of choice on the map, then run away and leave them there, completely confused.
  • When human players are outnumbering AI and AI planes have no option to climb and run away, AI sucks big times in defending their lifes. They will do a couple of weird maneouvres but this will stop quite soon, so all a human player has to do is stay on an AI's six for half a minute and wait for it to go straight - it will keep going straight, even if you start shooting parts off the plane, until you finally kill it.
  • Outnumbered AI will immediately stop helping each other, instead they'll all fight a fight on their own.
  • AI bombers don't try to stay in formation when being attacked - when you hit one, he will bounce out, even if he could stay in as well.

This is why I'd suggest not only to think about how and where AI uses superior powers at the moment and how to tone them down, but also how and where AI currently lacks desireable abilities and how to improve them.
Because if we'd just tone down AI's situational awareness, this would have to be compensated elsewhere, and with AI's current abilities the only compensation available would be to give the superpowered AI flightmodel even more super powers of to make the snipers even more sniper like.

I don't think anyone would want AI to become more stupid and more deadly by surprise.

Best regards - Mike
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  #62  
Old Yesterday, 01:11 PM
taly001 taly001 is offline
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Quote:
And you don't need experience to set a limit for maximum contacts to be able to track. Script can do that
I just saw a show about a concentration and memory test done with computer graphics object tracking, tracking 4 objects was the "peak point" where high skilled gamers outscored non or low skilled gamers. At less than 3 or more than 5 objects player skill level mattered less.

Storebror AI items listed I agree with, I just add the easy kills of planes flying straight for home that don't evade when hit is the most annoying one, I noticed it worst with recon/patrol fighters.

Il2 AI is now pretty good for dogfighting, and most things.
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  #63  
Old Yesterday, 02:07 PM
sniperton sniperton is offline
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@Storebror
What your examples describe can be summarized as 'bad leadership', and an inexperienced or inept human squadron leader would make the same wrong decisions (allowing to be lured away instead of disengaging and regrouping, or issuing 'each on his own' instead of 'together to the Walhalla').
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  #64  
Old Yesterday, 04:09 PM
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dimlee dimlee is offline
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Regarding AI bombers.

Some observations - since I resumed my online adventures couple of years ago.
- B-17, B-25, He 111, SB hold formations quite well. Slightly damaged bomber still stays in. Quite a task to break a formation without large calibre cannons.
- Blenheims and Beauforts keep well in pairs, but not in a group of 3 or 4.
- B-25 formation of 4 can be broken (occasionally) by flying through it without firing a single shot. Leader turns left, wingmen turns right, etc. Yet to see the same with other types.
- I have not seen AI bomber aerobatics for long time.
(But I see it offline, B-29 and TB-3 are most notorious).
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  #65  
Old Yesterday, 04:14 PM
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dimlee dimlee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taly001 View Post
I just saw a show about a concentration and memory test done with computer graphics object tracking, tracking 4 objects was the "peak point" where high skilled gamers outscored non or low skilled gamers. At less than 3 or more than 5 objects player skill level mattered less.
Interesting... The same was noticed years ago with marine radar operators - before ARPA systems were introduced.
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  #66  
Old Yesterday, 09:11 PM
majorfailure majorfailure is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storebror View Post
I don't think anyone would want AI to become more stupid and more deadly by surprise.

Best regards - Mike
That's exactly what I would like to see, for rookies(maybe average too). Better shooting -especially against targets that do little to no evading -including ground targets. Less SA, target fixation is a typical rookie move IMHO - at least I did that a lot. Veteran and above to me are more convincing, superb SA, mean shooting, but not entirely invincible, and now they sometimes miss the "ridiculous" 90 degree shots, maybe as much as I do.

But still - I don't see why giving the AI an ability to disengage would weaken them and then they need strengthening in another department?

And to add to your stupid AI collection - try attacking a flight as lone wolf, do it as flight leader, they are all over you in seconds. Do it as second in a flight and you can usually pick off one or two planes before reaction is initiated.
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  #67  
Old Today, 10:44 AM
sniperton sniperton is offline
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Originally Posted by majorfailure View Post
But still - I don't see why giving the AI an ability to disengage would weaken them and then they need strengthening in another department?
I’m with you, but there’s a dilemma. Aerial battles are now more decisive (and more arcade-like) than in RL were, there are more kills for the winner and higher losses for the underdog. This is fine for dogfights and coops, as we all want immediate action, and since we don’t risk our lives, we prefer a bloody massacre to an enemy who ‘cowardly’ disengages as soon as the odds are against him.

Teaching the AI to disengage and to evade combat would involve longer sessions with less action and more advantage-seeking intermissions. I’m personally for it, but it’s a matter of gaming preferences. Perhaps better shooting at non-evading targets would compensate for the more evasive AI and re-establish the sort of balance as we have now.

On the other hand, it’s unpredictable how all this would affect single-player campaigns where mostly the AI is fighting the AI. My point is that what might be desirable against human opponents could easily lead to stalemates in AI-AI encounters and would possibly break many single-player missions and campaigns designed and playtested with the non-evasive AI we have at present.
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