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Pilot's Lounge Members meetup

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  #101  
Old 08-29-2011, 03:21 PM
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ACE-OF-ACES ACE-OF-ACES is offline
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Originally Posted by Rattlehead View Post
Where I disagree is the bolded part. Developers making up their own universe have a much easier time of it than developers faithfully recreating something.
Depends really..

What I am referring to is the time it takes to dream up and script those 'other worlds', and as you know time is money. With regards to flight sims, they don't have to dream up a world, just implement the one we have.

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Originally Posted by Rattlehead View Post
Think of all the research that goes into a simulator, not only visual, but what goes on on the inside, like CEM, bullet physics, flight models etc.
The good news is the physics (math) of bullet and flight models has been around for a long time and has not changed much if any. And the implementation of said math has been done on computers for a very long time too. For example you can find the implementation of a F16 in FORTRAN. The only trick over the past 20 years was to get it all to run in real time, what with todays PCs that is no longer an issue. 20 years ago some parts of the flight model math had to be done via table lookup to save on processing power, but with todays high speed processors they can calculate those values in real time. I guess what I am saying is nothing really new physics/math wise has been added over the past 50 years wrt bullets and flight models, nothing new that the user will notice that is!

On a related topic, The area that is wide open.. and as far as I can see never ending is the math behind the AI and damage modeling. There things can be added that the user will notice!

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Originally Posted by Rattlehead View Post
The devs for say, Halo have none of that to worry about. They can make it up as they go, and don't have to worry about it being realistic.
Well there is still physics math involved, the only difference between HALO and IL2 is you don't have a death star top speed to compare to, to say how well the model of it is.
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Theres a reason for instrumenting a plane for test..
That being a pilots's 'perception' of what is going on can be very different from what is 'actually' going on.
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  #102  
Old 08-29-2011, 04:07 PM
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zapatista zapatista is offline
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Originally Posted by Theshark888 View Post
+1

You got it. Looks like Oleg screwed up bigtime and possibly lied about a sick son.
what kind of an insulting ignorant comment is that to make ? you been raised near a leaking atomic plant by any chance ?


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Originally Posted by Theshark888 View Post
Not very cool, but maybe this is how things are done in Russia????
your a bigoted fool who shouldn't be allowed near a computer

having been in this forum most weeks from its inception (till a couple of months after the CoD release), i can assure you that this is the type of meaningless insulting drivel only people like tree sprout here in this forum, and he does so deliberately at nausium because he is nothing but a petulant little whiner who draws in a cluster weak minded individuals that blow in whatever direction the wind goes that day

mmmm, /me remembers the mod's sane advice

am i prejudiced ? betcha i am right, its one of tree's thread turds that the other simpleton just stepped into

am i right ?

lemme check !

lol bingo !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tree_UK
Well it proves that when I posted Oleg had gone (during development) that I was right on target, It also shows of the deception all were involved in to make us believe that Oleg was still captain of the ship, even down to telling us that Oleg's son was really ill so Oleg couldn't post.
dont get confused by the smoke screen people like tree are deliberately creating, he is not here because of anything to do with flightsim'ing or because he is even interested in the project, his only purpose is to whine and moan and smear oleg and Co at whatever chance he gets. its a consistent trait of the yellow streaked tree to post misleading information like that, and you just stepped right in it

disclaimer to the mod's: if personal insults, smearing of oleg's character and deliberately misleading posts (aimed at oleg and Co) like this are not moderated, or there is now a sign that this is accepted in this forum after all that Oleg has done for the community (and no doubt will further do in the future), then is no choice but for other posters to reply in a tone that merits the insult. tree's constant thread crapping and deliberately misleading posts will continue to stink up forum unless he is at long last perm banned (with the rest of his aliases), he will NEVER change his color's, after all these years this should be clear to all here by now. if this type of nonsense is moderated, feel free to remove my post,

THIS POST HAS BEEN REPORTED 4 TIMES....

NAME CALLING IS TROLL

YOU CALL NAMES YOU DESERVE MODERATION ACTION!

Good content has merit.

When you disguise your good content with name calling you make everything in your posting just so much of what you refer to as drivel.

Go eat a bagel or something and cool down. As they say in Mexico tranquilo, tranquilo
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President Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953: Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone, it is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children

Last edited by nearmiss; 08-30-2011 at 12:03 AM.
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  #103  
Old 08-29-2011, 04:16 PM
IamNotDavid
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Originally Posted by zapatista View Post
disclaimer to the mod's: if personal insults, smearing of oleg's character and deliberately misleading posts (aimed at oleg and Co) like this are not moderated, or there is now a sign that this is accepted in this forum after all that Oleg has done for the community (and no doubt will further do in the future), then is no choice but for other posters to reply in a tone that merits the insult. tree's constant thread crapping and deliberately misleading posts will continue to stink up forum unless he is at long last perm banned (with the rest of his aliases), he will NEVER change his color's, after all these years this should be clear to all here by now. if this type of nonsense is moderated, feel free to remove my post,
+1
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  #104  
Old 08-29-2011, 04:25 PM
Rattlehead Rattlehead is offline
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Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES View Post
Depends really..

What I am referring to is the time it takes to dream up and script those 'other worlds', and as you know time is money. With regards to flight sims, they don't have to dream up a world, just implement the one we have.


Well there is still physics math involved, the only difference between HALO and IL2 is you don't have a death star top speed to compare to, to say how well the model of it is.
I agree in a sense; the art direction on these games is pretty insane - there are some very talented people in this world with some amazing imaginations. I'm often astounded at the believeable worlds these devs conjure up.

But look at this another way...if, for instance, they're busy modelling a spaceship but find that it's taking too much time to realise that ship they way they originally intended, the devs can cut back on the detail and/or the physics and nobody would know. There is nothing to compare it to, after all.
Game worlds can be made as intricate or as basic as their needs determine, because there is no point of reference for it. The end user would be non the wiser either way.

In a sim, you're bound by historical aspects that allow for very little leeway, if at all.
As I'm sure you've noticed from this board, hardcore flight sim fans will very quickly point out even very minor mistakes or errors in 3D models, flight models and other aspects. The devs can't get away with anything other than exacting detail.

It may sound rather simple in theory to 'simply' recreate something, but given the choice, I would much rather start with a clean slate so to speak that isn't bound by anything, rather than have to recreate history in the finest detail.

Last edited by Rattlehead; 08-29-2011 at 04:28 PM.
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  #105  
Old 08-29-2011, 04:27 PM
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zapatista zapatista is offline
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Originally Posted by ZaltysZ View Post
At the beginning BoB was further developed from IL2 and new features were built on top of it. However, someone thought it would be great idea to abandon Java (in which IL2 was written) and OpenGL. It might turn out it was indeed a great idea (in the long run), but usually such changes (revolution instead of evolution) mess whole project badly in the beginning, especially if you have small team and there were/are staff changes. That probably slowed development by 1-2 years at least.
you might know more then i do about the programing parts, but there were 2 steps in that delay

first the initial one was when they for a couple of years worked on improving the il2 code and were building BoB (as it was then called) as an advanced version of that same game engine (which has happened with several game engines successfully iirc)

a couple of years into that they decided on a complete rewrite from scratch. this in itself i wouldnt have seen as a major problem, and in the longer run s significantly to our advantage (as flightsimmers)

the 2e delay happened a couple of years after that roughly, when there was some major internal upheaval in the development team, some people were fired by Oleg, and there was a significant change in programmers working there (and RoF suddenly had lots of new staff with great idea's, but that is my personal speculation about 2 intersecting time lines, it roughly occurred at the same time)

others here might remember more about those 2 events, but its the combination of the 2 and in particular the 2e delay that lost 2 or 3 years that was the big killer imho
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President Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953: Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone, it is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children
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  #106  
Old 08-29-2011, 04:33 PM
nearmiss nearmiss is offline
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1 -Speculation - It is common practice with authors, especially proven authors to provide them with what is called "front money".

That should have some advocates don't you think?

2- Matrimonial unblissedness - It is common practice for all hell to break loose when a person is involved in a divorce, especially when children are involved.

That would require more speculation wouldn't it?

3. - Settlement offers with a price that cannot be refused.

Oops, that is Godfather stuff, " make an offer he can't refuse, put a horse's head in his bed".

Until Luthier or Oleg tell us what happened we won't know, but one thing is sure... we still probably won't know the whole story.

Tree will have an adjunct argument for certain.

I don't have a problem with that either, because critical and alternative thinking is what we need more of in this world. We would NOT be in the messes we are now, if our leaders were thinking..."What the heck is the person really saying, what are his motivations, and why does it all seem too simple, there has to be A RAT in all this... I've got find it".

Last edited by nearmiss; 08-29-2011 at 04:39 PM.
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  #107  
Old 08-29-2011, 04:37 PM
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zapatista zapatista is offline
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Originally Posted by GF_Mastiff View Post
Well maybe when 777 studio puts out their WWII fighter sim, then we will see.
I give up on 1C and getting this IL2 sturmovik Cliffs Of Dover version off the ground. Maybe if in 18 months, it might look and be as good as Rise Of Flight.
the only thing RoF does well, is as you put it "look good" (and close to the ground at low altitude it doesnt even do that, its flat sterile texture slabs with very little detail).granted the planes look pretty enough, but they use mostly canned flightmodels that are scripted (with a splash of real physics), the game was released empty and incomplete, they make you pay for every single plane, the world you fly in is empty and sterile, etc...

still, lets not digress the thread, suffice to say that RoF is nothing much to aim for in my book compared to the lofty hights CoD/BoB was aiming for (or even in comparison to some of the aspects of the old il2, mod'ed or unmod'ed)
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President Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953: Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone, it is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children

Last edited by zapatista; 08-29-2011 at 04:55 PM.
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  #108  
Old 08-29-2011, 04:51 PM
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zapatista zapatista is offline
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Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger View Post
Just a few more words from Jason over at SIMHQ
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.ph...3373697/6.html
Now I posted it as a whole so hopefully I don't take it out of context but here's my take on it.
The interesting points for me are
So most of what was originally stated by Jason was/is common knowledge in Russia.
Like most of us westerners we only get to see a small amount of any of the discussions where someone sees something that will backup the points that they are trying to make and translated only that small part.
One of the good things about ROF is that it is it stands on its own as a SIM. The developers can be very proud of what they have achieved. Like many projects a lot of ideas are bounced around in the begining. I'm sure the ROF team made the best choice for their project.
In my opinion the Cliffs of Dover team can be proud of what they have done so far. There's still alot of work to be done but that goes with all projects. You don't see the ROF team stopping their development work!
From what I see when I play COD I know that the COD team has a lot of talent and has put in a lot of hard work. Now it's our turn as a community to do our part!
Maybe as a community we should be a little less interested in point scoring seeing what we can do to make it a success?
Cheers!
interesting, with the new bit being that there was indeed direct contact between RoF and the il2 team at the start of the RoF project (i hadnt seen that confirmed yet, and just knew about the overlapping time lines). the more jason tries to deny the link, the more confirmation there tends to be of a possible link with that lost 2 or 3 yrears on CoD/BoB (jups i am speculating here)

what i DO remember about that period is that there were incidents of attempted (and successful ?) code theft, and that some of those that were fired were because of unprofessional behavior and breaches of confidentiality, it was not a technical competency thing, there were "incidents" that led oleg to fire them, that much was clear.

one savior in all this was oleg's modular game design, were no single programer (other then himself) had an overview of the whole project, or had working integrated code. they each worked on their own area's, object and plane design, flight models, scenery, grafix engine , terrain detail etc..

pieces of the puzzle are starting to come together, we need some russian speaking contributors to unravel the rest.
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President Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953: Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone, it is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children

Last edited by zapatista; 08-29-2011 at 04:53 PM.
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  #109  
Old 08-29-2011, 04:57 PM
nearmiss nearmiss is offline
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Originally Posted by zapatista View Post
interesting, with the new bit being that there was indeed direct contact between RoF and the il2 team at the start (i hadnt seen that confirmed yet, and just knew about the overlapping time lines)

what i DO remember about that period is that there were incidents of attempted (and successful ?) code theft, and that some of those that were fired were because of unprofessional behavior and breaches of confidentiality, it was not a technical competency thing, there were "incidents" that led oleg to fire them, that much was clear.

one savior in all this was oleg's modular game design, were no single programer (other then himself) had an overview of the whole project, or had working integrated code. they each worked on their own area's, object and plane design, flight models, scenery, grafix engine , terrain detail etc..

pieces of the puzzle are starting to come together, we need some russian speaking contributors to unravel the rest.
Go to ubisoft forums and stir up Gibbage, he used to work for Oleg progamming IL2. He has made so many rants, he is basically ignored. Yet a newb will hang on his every word.

At this point nothing matters that has passed. We all hope for the sake of our community that Luthier and the current dev team is up to the task.

No sense wagging a finger at the devs, Luthier or Oleg and saying naughty, naughty... it's a done deal. The devs have to move on. We would do ourselves good service to move on from all the speculations, whines, rants, etc.

I have every confidence as the fixes come to us, the COD patches will encourage new zeal from our community.

Last edited by nearmiss; 08-29-2011 at 05:01 PM.
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  #110  
Old 08-29-2011, 05:18 PM
Al Schlageter Al Schlageter is offline
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Originally Posted by nearmiss View Post
Go to ubisoft forums and stir up Gibbage, he used to work for Oleg progamming IL2. He has made so many rants, he is basically ignored. Yet a newb will hang on his every word.
No he didn't. He was a graphic artist doing a/c.
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