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IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover Latest instalment in the acclaimed IL-2 Sturmovik series from award-winning developer 1C: Maddox Games.

View Poll Results: Steam poll
Yes I have and like using Steam 256 54.47%
Yes I have and dont like using Steam 67 14.26%
No I do not have Steam but will for CoD 52 11.06%
No I do not have Steam and will not for CoD 95 20.21%
Voters: 470. You may not vote on this poll

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  #141  
Old 03-10-2011, 04:08 PM
Yammo Yammo is offline
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Just had to throw a log onto this fire.

First off, I really love steam...
The DRM works great and their store is awesome.
...that said, there are some real skeletons in the Steam-closet.


First and foremost...
...your steam-account is a free subscription and you do not "buy" the games
on steam, but rent them for a one-time fee. This means that you are
not a customer, but a subscriber which greatly affects your position versus
Steam should you ever run into problems with them. A customer has very
strong rights, but a subscriber does not.

For example, as a subscriber, you have no "rights of first-sale", which means
you can not sell or give your game away. (Actually even throwing away games
that you loathe requires you to contact support.)

If at any time, your subscription should be terminated, you will lose access
to all your steam games and will have little or no real possibility of getting
them back.

For the "privilege" of subscribing to a game, you actually pay a higher price
than for the physical product. Sometimes up towards 50% more...


So, do I use Steam?
Heck, yes... Like I said: - I love Steam!
But I only purchase "dime-a-dozen" games there, games such as TeamFortress2,
Torchlight and Bad Company 2. I the mere thought of purchasing IL2 off steam
wouldn't even begin to speculate about the merest possibility of crossing my mind.


(Note: If it absolutely had to come down to choosing between Steam and
a UBI-Soft DRM, well... I'd choose Steam every time. But only because the
UBI-Soft DRM is something of the most customer-hostile and computer-
invasive root-kit spy-ware created to date.)
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  #142  
Old 03-10-2011, 05:04 PM
Kikuchiyo Kikuchiyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yammo View Post
First and foremost...
...your steam-account is a free subscription and you do not "buy" the games
on steam, but rent them for a one-time fee. This means that you are
not a customer, but a subscriber which greatly affects your position versus
Steam should you ever run into problems with them. A customer has very
strong rights, but a subscriber does not.

For example, as a subscriber, you have no "rights of first-sale", which means
you can not sell or give your game away. (Actually even throwing away games
that you loathe requires you to contact support.)

If at any time, your subscription should be terminated, you will lose access
to all your steam games and will have little or no real possibility of getting
them back.

For the "privilege" of subscribing to a game, you actually pay a higher price
than for the physical product. Sometimes up towards 50% more...
Standard EULA verbage for box copies too. All EULAs regardless of physical copy or digital say exactly that same thing. (I understand you like Steam etc, but I am just trying to set records straight).

On the "first-sale-rights" once again read the EULA of any game.

That bit about your account being revoked sucks, but I know of no case where that has happened, and as such I imagine that someone doing that would have to have done some serious shenanigans to get that.

The "higher price" for a digital copy is because Retailer's threatened publisher's with not carrying their products if they allowed any digital distributor to offer the same games at a lower everyday price than the retail version. On the flipside this means more money goes to the people that actual make the games rather than retailers.

I am not trying to be inflammatory, smug, or defensive I am just trying to lay out factual information for those that may not know what Steam is or how EULAs work in general.

I am not some kid either I am a father of 3 and have been playing video games since before I can remember(sometime early '80s is the best I can do). I don't believe that Valve or any company is without fault anymore than I think any person is without fault. I however like to have at hand factual information, and I to pass that information on to those that do not have it. My taste in video games span nearly all genres (excepting platformers I really hate those). I just want these things to be taken into consideration before people call me a defender, or a kiddie, or a smug bastard or whatever they want to throw out there. Name calling achieves nothing.
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  #143  
Old 03-10-2011, 09:32 PM
=XIII=Shea =XIII=Shea is offline
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I have alot of games on steam and have had no problems what so ever
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  #144  
Old 03-10-2011, 10:08 PM
Blackdog_kt Blackdog_kt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrunch View Post
This is true, but from a developer's point of view, why bother? If you know Steam can do it, and better than you can, what need is there to waste time on it? I bet using Steam has been the plan all along.
Blackdog, I would ask what evidence you have that the decision to use Steam is a *recent* one? Just because we didn't know about it until recently, and indeed just because the work wasn't done until recently doesn't mean the decision wasn't made. After all, Steam integration is not likely to be particularly difficult, Hyperlobby acted as a server browser without any intervention code-wise from Maddox Games at all in the case of Il-2.
Maybe it wasn't a recent decision, true. The implementation was a recent thing, according to a post in an interview or update thread within the last couple of months (conservative estimate to be on the safe side as i'm a bit bored to go digging for the exact quote, it might be as small a time frame as the past 2-3 weeks).
It's also been stated through similar avenues of communication with the community that it was a publisher decision. I still remember that quote well enough even if not 100% verbatim, it clearly said something to the effect of "at the request of the publisher" if not using the exact same words. Both of these snippets of info where from official sources by the way, straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.

What i'm pointing at is that the integration with Steam was an external, forced decision and as such, being against it doesn't necessarily paint one as a person who's disrespectful of Oleg's work. I'm still getting a collector's edition but i still don't have to like this last minute inclusion in the package.

According to information posted by the developers themselves CoD already has DRM and multiplayer capability of its own, they have also said that integrating it was not their own choice, ergo its inclusion in the package is more of an order from above and far from a necessity.

All of this has no bearing whatsoever on whether Steam is a good or bad platform and that's why i keep telling people that i don't hate Steam neither do i want to bash it: i just don't care enough about it to go to all the trouble of praising or discrediting it and i don't want to have to care ever.
So, let's get that out of the way right from the start, i don't have any particular interest to pass judgment on Steam, either positive or negative and i don't care enough to form an opinion. It's one of those things that i haven't had to think about until now and i would prefer it to stay this way.

What the aforementioned information has a bearing on however, is that it shows as clear as day that a purely optional feature is being served as a mandatory one under the disguise of it being necessary, while its necessity has already been refuted by the developers.

So, it is at this juncture that external factors are forcing me to form an opinion on steam, up to this point in time i didn't care and wouldn't ever. Let's just say then that when the introduction is a forced one, it doesn't leave the best of impressions regardless of the product's actual quality and leave it at that.

Up this point everything is factual and even documented by credible sources on this very forum, so please excuse me for adding a bit of hypothesis in my final point: 1C=/=maddox games, because 1C is a publisher just like Ubi is.

If true, this changes everything about the argument of who gets the money and how much. If Ubi and 1C are still the publishers they are still getting a cut on top of what steam will take.

A lot of people here seem to think that maddox games=1C, which i seriously doubt is true. The most possible scenario is that maddox games is one among the many game development studios in Russia and 1C is just their local publisher, just like Ubi is for the western market.

So, while a Steam release might mean more profit for 1C, it doesn't necessarily translate the same for maddox games. It's like saying "selling on Steam makes EA/UBI/other publisher more money".

In fact, the more i think of it, the more it seems like one more group of people skimming fat off of Oleg's milk.
If steam gets a 30% on all kinds of copies (boxed, collectors, download) and UBI (western version) or 1C (Russian version) get another 30% or so, it's clearly obvious that Oleg is better off separating his publishers:
1) Dedicated Steam version, 30% goes to Steam and 70% goes to maddox games. Only Steam DRM.
2) Non-steam version with Solidshield DRM, once again Ubi/1C get 30% and maddox games gets 70%.

Much better than what seems to be the current scenario, whereby the combined cut of Steam and Ubi/1C could be upwards of 50% on every single copy, regardless of version.

Sadly, we don't have more information about this so i'm not going to go ahead and claim it's true. However, it's a reasonable doubt and something i'd really like to know more about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yammo View Post
Just had to throw a log onto this fire.

First off, I really love steam...
The DRM works great and their store is awesome.
...that said, there are some real skeletons in the Steam-closet.


First and foremost...
...your steam-account is a free subscription and you do not "buy" the games
on steam, but rent them for a one-time fee. This means that you are
not a customer, but a subscriber which greatly affects your position versus
Steam should you ever run into problems with them. A customer has very
strong rights, but a subscriber does not.

For example, as a subscriber, you have no "rights of first-sale", which means
you can not sell or give your game away. (Actually even throwing away games
that you loathe requires you to contact support.)

If at any time, your subscription should be terminated, you will lose access
to all your steam games and will have little or no real possibility of getting
them back.

For the "privilege" of subscribing to a game, you actually pay a higher price
than for the physical product. Sometimes up towards 50% more...


So, do I use Steam?
Heck, yes... Like I said: - I love Steam!
But I only purchase "dime-a-dozen" games there, games such as TeamFortress2,
Torchlight and Bad Company 2. I the mere thought of purchasing IL2 off steam
wouldn't even begin to speculate about the merest possibility of crossing my mind.


(Note: If it absolutely had to come down to choosing between Steam and
a UBI-Soft DRM, well... I'd choose Steam every time. But only because the
UBI-Soft DRM is something of the most customer-hostile and computer-
invasive root-kit spy-ware created to date.)
That's a very well balanced post. Steam is definitely better than Ubi's abomination of a DRM (a Ubimination maybe? ).

On the other hand, i agree about everything you said about the type of games i would buy from such a service. The games that really have the potential to grow on me, i prefer them to be independent from outside factors as much as possible.

I wouldn't mind permanently losing access to a $10 weekend bargain shooter (i would just a little bit, but only out of customer service ethics/principles), but if i was suddenly told that i can no more fly my CoD collector's edition without having done something wrong myself, let's just say i'd be mighty p*ssed off, possibly enough to give the responsible parties bad publicity whenever the chance came up.

The main problem is that a more or less worthless EULA when viewed under the scope of consumer laws is suddenly made enforceable by the publisher via a certain distribution tool: if i buy a boxed edition game and bypass the copy protection so that i don't have to run it with the disc in the drive all the time, nobody can do anything about it because it's a consumer right to have one backup copy of each purchased game. If however i get banned from an online all-in-one vendor/verification/game management platform for whatever reason, even if i'm well within the boundaries of the law regardless of what the EULA says, i lose access to all my games there and by consequence the cash i paid for it. Should i take the case to court i would probably win, but the guys running the distribution platform just know that i can't afford the legal expenses to even start on such a case, so they could simply take my money and leave even if i'm well within the rights consumer law gives me.

In short, i'm generally averse to such platforms because they have the potential to interfere with my gaming as well as force me to accept terms of use that range from controversial to downright illegal.

I'm not saying Steam is out to screw me over, i'm just saying that it could do so very easily if it ever wanted to and giving people i don't know and can't retaliate against that much control on me is something i detest as a matter of principle. Like i've said before, i'm still getting a collector's edition for my own enjoyment and to support the work of team Maddox, but i'd be lying if i said i won't try to disable this feature first chance i get.
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  #145  
Old 03-10-2011, 10:17 PM
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ElAurens ElAurens is offline
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Well said.
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  #146  
Old 03-11-2011, 12:24 AM
Thee_oddball Thee_oddball is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElAurens View Post
Well said.
ditto
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  #147  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:33 AM
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Robert Robert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkOwl View Post
It may be possible to install from the DVD (although I can't guarantee it). For sure if it is Steam, you can fetch it from their servers whenever you want.

You can choose to back it up as CD or DVD image files (Steam will create whichever you want for you) and you can burn these ISO or just keep them on another hard drive. You can transfer this to another computer or choose to download the game from the steam servers on any computer.

Benefits of Steam in your case should be:

1. Extremely easily available (from disc, backup discs, backup image files or the Steam servers).
2. There is no install process and no need to use a disc & no-disc cracks.
3. Ability to check that the game is correctly installed & uncorrupted, with any broken files replaced. I.e. no need to uninstall-reinstall.
4. No need to manually download & apply patches (auto patching is an option)
5. If installed through downloading from Steam, it is always the latest patched version.
Thanks MikkOwl. You've allayed my fears regarding Steam and me need to work on my PC. Appreciate the feed back.
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  #148  
Old 03-11-2011, 02:56 AM
Codex Codex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElAurens View Post
I have been doing homework on Steam since this mess started.

Been asking folks I know personally that are involved in I.T. gaming, computer repair, and related businesses.

It's the only way to find clear, calm, and reasoned answers to my questions and concerns, as certainly none of the fan boys on either side that are constantly posting on the three main forums are capable of adult discussion.

So far I am pretty much hearing the same thing from all of them.

1. Never install Steam on a computer that is used for financial information work/storage that is not encrypted. QuickBooks came up a lot in this area.

2. Do not install Steam on any computer that you use to store any important personal information of any kind. Financial records, business transaction records, credit card transaction records, etc... or anything that is of deep personal value to you.

3. As a gaming resource it isn't a bad thing in and of itself. But, like any open port to the greater net, it can be used in a nefarious manner.

4. It is not a huge resouce hog, but it does "phone home" and there is additional network traffic because of it.

5. Never make direct credit card purchases for games on Steam. Buy Steam points at a brick and mortar store and use those online.

6. Be careful and it is not going to bite you.


OK.

That's where I'm at for now.
You got solid advice ElAurens, I love point 6. It's just ironic that the same thing can be said about using Firefox, Google Chrome, IE etc and yet I'd bet my bottom dollar we all use those browsers everyday to surf the net, by goods etc without even thinking about it.

The point is, it's not as scary as everyone makes it out to be. Yes be careful but also don't stop yourself from enjoying CoD. Besides if the unthinkable did happen and your credit card got cleaned out, every Bank that offers it's customer's credit cards must adhere to Credit Consumer Laws, and they're geared heavily in the consumers favour, you will be inconvenienced a bit if it did happen but your guaranteed by law to get your money back.
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  #149  
Old 03-11-2011, 03:35 AM
Jaguar Jaguar is offline
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Posts: 53
Wink Steam

Steam has some advantages and has parts of it that I detest. I truely understand why some will not support it and why others think its fantastic.


I use steam for games like NTW and ETW. I hated the fact when I first began that steam rewrote any changes that were made on my end with the game. Did I want to go online with my newfound changes. No I did not. Any way I put that game on the do not play shelf for a long while. Until i found this

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php

Man did they bring life back into enjoyment of my DVD purchased games. Stop by just to see whats happening. For those who are a little concerned about Steam and the modern abilities of others. I don't even worry about not having a vanila game that I can use online.
I'm more than positive that offliners can find some helpful hints around in this brave new world. Make your own choice and let others do the same. What are you really afraid of when you have to have it your way?
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  #150  
Old 03-11-2011, 04:45 AM
gonk gonk is offline
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I like steam until patches or mods hit the streets.... then it usually get ugly.
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