1C Home   |   Register   |   Today Posts   |   Members   |   UserCP   |   Calendar   |   Search   |   FAQ

Go Back   Official 1C Company forum > 1C Publishing > IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover > Technical threads > FM/DM threads

FM/DM threads Everything about FM/DM in CoD

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 09-26-2012, 08:15 PM
ACE-OF-ACES's Avatar
ACE-OF-ACES ACE-OF-ACES is offline
Approved Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NM
Posts: 2,247
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumpp View Post
Quote:
EMERGENCY OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS
http://www.winthrop.dk/p38op11.html

Like most twins, losing an engine means a ~75% reduction in performance.
Ok..

Bear with me here Crumpp

Because IMHO this post of yours is a little confusing..

Note.. it starts off with the heading/title..

-EMERGENCY OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS from the P-38 pilot's manual..
-Followed by the link to the P-38 pilot's manual..
-Followed by the statement Like most twins, losing an engine means a ~75% reduction in performance...

At a glance one would get the impression that the statement is from the P-38 pilots manual..

But I check the link and no where does it contain that statement..

So, at this point I can only assume that statement is simply your opinion and has nothing to do with the P-38 pilots manual, even though it was presented in such a way as to give the impression that it was from the P-38 pilots manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumpp View Post
Typically, the P-38 cannot hold altitude with gear and flaps extended.
True at very low MP settings..

But more importantly..

'Typically' you would NOT be flying around with your gear and flaps extended on one, let alone two engines!!

That configuration only comes into play during a landing..

Where your not trying to hold an altitude, your trying to reduce your altitude so you can land!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumpp View Post
The single engine does produce enough excess thrust to overcome the drag.
And more!

See the PERFORMANCE section I quoted below

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumpp View Post
Quote:
At rated power, 44" Hg. 2,600 rpm, the airplane will barely hold altitude with landing gear extended and flaps up.
Quote:
With landing gear extended the airplane will not hold altitude at any flap extension
I found both of these quotes, back to back, in the P-38s pilots manual..

In the EMERGENCY OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS section (4) FURTHER INFORMATION with regards to the preceding section (3) SINGLE ENGINE APPROACH AND LANDING..

As I noted above..

You would NOT fly around with the landing gear and flaps down..

This only comes into play during landing, as noted above SINGLE ENGINE APPROACH AND LANDING..

So, not sure what your point was here?

I also noticed that you failed to note that the P-38s were not limited to 44" Hg..

IIRC the P-38H was limited to 54"Hg. and the later models were limited to 60"Hg. for 110oct and 70"Hg. for 150oct..

So, in essence, the P-38s could fly and maintain alt after raising the gear with or without flaps and an MP set above 44"..

In summary your post has a very cherry picked negative feel to it..

That or maybe in your rush you just missed the following quote from the P-38s pilots manual?

That being the one in the EMERGENCY OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS section (1) ENGINE FAILURE DURING FLIGHT..

Where is says the following

Quote:
PERFORMANCE - The airplane flies well on one engine. Using normal rated power, it will climb to about 26,500 feet, and can be flown at more than 255 mph (true speed) in level flight at 20,000 feet
As you can see from that quote..

A single engine not only produces enough excess thrust to overcome drag..

It produces enough thrust to climb to an altitude of 26Kft and maintain level flight at 255mph at 20Kft!

Also note the part where is says DURING FLIGHT..

That DURING FLIGHT aspects is what the original question was about wrt the Bf110 and later the P-38..

So, I don't know where you got the impression that we were talking about landings?

But since you brought it up..

I should point out that even on one engine, the P-38 was able to make several landing attempts, as long as it stayed above 500ft..

Allow me..

I should also point out that the following is NOT part of the EMERGENCY OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS section, thus not considered an EMERGENCY procedure

In the section APPROACH AND LANDING section c. SINGLE APPROACH AND LANDING - CAUTION it says

Quote:
Concentrate sharply on your approach because once you are fully extended the flaps and the landing gear or descended below 500 ft. you cannot again circle the field and you must make a landing. If however the flaps are not fully extended and your elevation is still 500 feet or more and you want to go around again, proceed as follows before beginning to circle.
As you can see from that quote..

A single engine not only produces enough excess thrust to overcome drag..

It produces enough thrust to climb out and circle around for another attempt at landing!

I hope this clarification helps put to rest any of your concerns, and or anyone else who read your post and was concerned that the only option the P-38 had was to land/ditch when flying with one engine!

If your still concerned..

Here is a quote from Stand Wood, who is the WWII P-38 pilot that provided the P-38 pilots manual at that link you provided

Quote:
Stand Wood:
Two engines in the P-38 gives a person a feeling of security that one engine can never do. I came back once with an oil fire in my right engine and landing with the remaining engine was no trouble
Hope that helps! S!
__________________
Theres a reason for instrumenting a plane for test..
That being a pilots's 'perception' of what is going on can be very different from what is 'actually' going on.

Last edited by ACE-OF-ACES; 09-27-2012 at 01:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 09-26-2012, 11:40 PM
NZtyphoon NZtyphoon is offline
Approved Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: NZ
Posts: 543
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kohmelo View Post
So in Cod if one engine is shot off from Bf-110 you should immediately turn it off and feather or coarsen, if unable to feather, the pitch as much as possible? Close all rad on that engine and push other engine to its limit 2400-2600 Rpm?

I might be doing something wrong because every time I push Bf-110 near 2400 rpm i'll burn my engine(s) up.

And little offtopic:

Do I remember wrong that there were a prototype Bf-110 with Counter-rotating propellers? I have some vague memory of reading about problems with weight distribution which cancelled the positive effect of Counter-rotating propellers.
Yep feather, close rads and only use 2,400 rpm and above on your good engine if you're losing altitude too quickly - you might have to adjust (coarsen) your pitch on your good engine to keep the revs down.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 09-27-2012, 12:01 AM
WTE_Galway WTE_Galway is offline
Approved Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,201
Default

The interesting thing about the p38, mentioned earlier, is the tops of the propeller arcs move outwards (not inwards like a conventional counter-rotating setup). Naturally this makes the p38 "tricky" under asymmetric thrust regardless of which of the engines fails. There is no critical engine in a p38, they are BOTH bad.

According to Kelly Johnson, this was done to make the p38 a more stable gun platform.

Last edited by WTE_Galway; 09-27-2012 at 12:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 09-27-2012, 12:03 AM
Glider Glider is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 441
Default

Can the Me110 fly on one engine.

The following is a quote from the Tactical Trial undertaken on an Me110 captured in July 1940

The aircraft flies well on either engine. It is able to climb and maintain height easily without feathering the propeller. With the propeller feathered the single engine performance is improved considerably, and the aircraft may be turned comfortably both with and against the live engine.

So the reply is Yes it can easily.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 09-27-2012, 12:13 AM
NZtyphoon NZtyphoon is offline
Approved Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: NZ
Posts: 543
Default

Speaking of twin engines...



droool!
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 09-27-2012, 12:27 AM
KG26_Alpha KG26_Alpha is offline
Approved Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Posts: 2,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glider View Post
Can the Me110 fly on one engine.

The following is a quote from the Tactical Trial undertaken on an Me110 captured in July 1940

The aircraft flies well on either engine. It is able to climb and maintain height easily without feathering the propeller. With the propeller feathered the single engine performance is improved considerably, and the aircraft may be turned comfortably both with and against the live engine.

So the reply is Yes it can easily.
Please provide the source material so we all can evaluate please.

Other wise to be honest your post has no value regarding the context as presented.


Last edited by KG26_Alpha; 09-27-2012 at 12:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 09-27-2012, 01:03 AM
Al Schlageter Al Schlageter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 657
Default

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me110/me110.html

data on the Bf110. For the gear heads there is an article on the DB601 from Flight - Nov 7 1940
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 09-27-2012, 03:56 AM
NZtyphoon NZtyphoon is offline
Approved Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: NZ
Posts: 543
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Schlageter View Post
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me110/me110.html

data on the Bf110. For the gear heads there is an article on the DB601 from Flight - Nov 7 1940
From the "Instructions for Flying the Messerschmitt 110" :

Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 09-27-2012, 11:53 AM
Glider Glider is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 441
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha View Post
Please provide the source material so we all can evaluate please.

Other wise to be honest your post has no value regarding the context as presented.

Here are the docs in original not good but you can read them. first page gives the context the second the section I quoted. Hope this gives the value you are after

Wouldn't it be nice if others could support their statements with original documents
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Me110 tac trials (3).JPG (3.44 MB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg Me110 tac trials (7).JPG (3.48 MB, 21 views)

Last edited by Glider; 09-27-2012 at 01:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 09-27-2012, 10:57 PM
Glider Glider is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 441
Default

I have had a couple of requests to show the entire document which I am attaching over the next couple of postings
I hope they assist
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Me110 tac trials (2).JPG (3.27 MB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg Me110 tac trials (3).JPG (3.44 MB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Me110 tac trials (4).JPG (3.41 MB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg Me110 tac trials (5).JPG (3.47 MB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg Me110 tac trials (6).JPG (3.44 MB, 11 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2007 1C Company. All rights reserved.