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  #31  
Old 03-11-2012, 04:48 AM
Whacker Whacker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HundertneunGustav View Post
i dont see the insult to the devs?
and no...
"and you wonder why noone flies any more" is a pretty clear insult.

Quote:
he does not need to show his sources to please anyone.
much like TD does not have an obligation to show its sources.
Without showing sources all one is doing is complaining. TD doesn't have to show us their sources, which is true. The makers of the game did so under circumstances that aren't available to us and likely never will. That doesn't mean they are wrong at all, or right. But the burden of proof is on the requester, period. Otherwise, it's just someone complaining.

Quote:
you fly what you get, or go mod.
100% agree. This is why I fly all the major mods, because they all expand on the game and offer different things.

Quote:
why less and less people fly?
more along the lines:
why more and more old hands leave the banana forums... the atmosphere in here is shafty at best, with red whiners and blue whiners clinging onto numbers instead of flying...
Egoes instead of smiles and relaxed people...
I can't talk to the forums or atmosphere, it's been an interesting combination of laid back and whining and demanding. I think it's ridiculous though that threads like these pop up with someone making grand claims about some historical "fact" (MW50 use for so and so didn't cause the engine to catch fire) without providing any evidence. Without evidence to back up claims and prove that facts are facts, it's just wasted breath and complaining.

So I go back to my original post in here, and what I've seen others say countless times. What HARD data with REFERENCES does anyone have to back up these claims about MW50 operating procedures. "Use the brain" and other nonsense is just that... nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang View Post
Without copying and pasting...

I would like to see an original flight manual of the La 7 or La 5 FN and the "Flight test".

I never saw one.
Which has absolutely nothing at all to do with your topic here, MW50 operation in the 109's.

Quote:
That's the point.
Ask for evidence ... Over 10 years ... I see little evidence, for many planes.

I do not want insult Realy.
I want to learn.

.
So you just admitted to being guilty of what you see... Lots of claims with no evidence. But you're still demanding a change based on what you see as factual.

The burden of proof is on you mate. Show us some manufacturer's testing results to show that's how the DB605's really performed in the field when MW50 was used. Show us some surviving pilot's accounts that all match up. Any hard evidence. Anything less is just pointless conjecture, for every "use the brain" "facts" that you can come up with, I can come up with half a dozen other "facts" based on what I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceFire View Post
I've been watching this thread hoping for some interesting information, but aside from the La-5FN manual, I haven't seen much from the personal attacks and people typing (yelling?) in very large print.

It'd be refreshing to have less of the yelling and more positive discussion. IMHO.
+1
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  #32  
Old 03-11-2012, 05:43 AM
Whacker Whacker is offline
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Had a sudden epiphany.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=29971

Want a change? Great, follow that format. Post some hard data that the devs can look at and go from there. Otherwise, this thread is a pointless exercise.
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  #33  
Old 03-11-2012, 06:23 AM
Shardur Shardur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
... Show us some manufacturer's testing results to show that's how the DB605's really performed in the field when MW50 was used. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
OK, well then what about some of the data here: http://kurfurst.org/#engines

... ? I didn't find any DB605 engine manual scans after some brief searching.
Your lower quote actually contains a link with manufacturer engine data on the performance of the DB-605 in various versions. What it does not contain is the info how long the performance can be sustained. So any specifics you want to know apart form that info?
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  #34  
Old 03-11-2012, 06:33 AM
Whacker Whacker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shardur View Post
Your lower quote actually contains a link with manufacturer engine data on the performance of the DB-605 in various versions. What it does not contain is the info how long the performance can be sustained. So any specifics you want to know apart form that info?
Not me, Mustang is the plaintiff here. My only interest is improving the "realism" of our game by giving TD some potential hard data if there's something to be corrected, hence why I was trying to coax some actual references out of the situation. Beyond that, I'm pretty much over all this.
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  #35  
Old 03-11-2012, 10:24 AM
HundertneunGustav HundertneunGustav is offline
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whacker,

and if mustang is not proving his point about MW50 helping engine cooling, and thus getting a performance increase either in horsepower or maximum length of the WEP thing...

and IF he was a complainer...
or: about people in general that are complaining...

a) Data is Data, and Test Results. Just that. A must-have, a necessity to base Game performance on. If not, This would not be a simulator.

b) recommendations by the Luftwaffle are just that... like rules meant to be broken occasionally.

c) the state of the planes in the field was different than on the test tracks "back home" (note i say "different" - to encompass good and bad elements alike) the point is that in the field, where this simulation takes place, "the Data" can not be followed down to the last fraction of a percent. sometimes, planes are "uber", sometimes a plane "gets the shaft".
implementing the Data in the game works pretty well if you ask me.
zeroes turn on a dime, Mustangs are a handsful to fly, and a thud dives faster than a 2000lbs bomb. I-16 suffer from fuel cut-out, and the stuka is ridiculously slow. its all pretty close to the real thing.

d) red (corsair, Mustang) and blue (109/190) whining alike = game is in balance.

e) you don't like the game... go play with your dog. Or welcome to the SAS and Freemodding and stuff... "do -it-yourself".

in a nutshell, the CAPITAL and BOLD stuff is irrational and useless. Just noise.

about insulting TD...
i guess they need stronger stuff than than
"EVERY DAY LESS PEOPLE ARE FLYING"

Observe:
Every day i see half a Dozen Noobs pop up at the SAS, or old hands come back.
And no matter what the politics says: the Mod stuff is based on the TD stuff.
SO i figure: TD is doing a decent Job.
If it were xxxx, no more mods, no more new noobs.
Online or offline.

"less people are flying" is not an insult.
It is an exclamation that reflects the poster' s emotional state.
This is what it really does mean, in my opinion:
"Every day, i am less motivated to fly"
"every day, i am more frustrated because the holy data does not match my perfect flying"

That is not an insult.
That is path... err... Sad.



There is nothing gained from this topic. Its been discussed, and will continue to be discussed occasionaly. But, as you say: Good try to interpret the numbers by Mustang, but nothing really relevant to be found here.
Thread has turned towards drama and yelling, and.... that' s it.

This topic=

GAME OVER
Credits 0
Please insert coins

Last edited by KG26_Alpha; 03-13-2012 at 04:31 PM.
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  #36  
Old 03-12-2012, 10:00 PM
Mustang Mustang is offline
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@WTE_Galway , Thanks Beautiful manual, I will love the plane
@HundertneunGustav, Thanks



My las credit in this forum.... maybe




Quote:
and as the mixture absorbs heat and vaporizes,
temperatures inside the cylinder are reduced
= cooling

2) Can water/meth injection damage my engine?
With most aftermarket parts there's always the possibility of damage, but not if the unit is installed and used properly. As long as the injection system is working properly, it can only do good things. Since the water and methanol will help dissolve carbon buildup, it can keep your spark plugs, valves, and combustion chambers very clean, too.

Read more: http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...#ixzz1ownDQALK


3) Can you run just water injection without methanol?
Yes, but you will not be able to take advantage of the octane-boosting properties of methanol, thus you will get cooling from the water, but no increase in octane.
Without methanol, you may not make as much power.

Read more: http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...#ixzz1owmmuqxK

= cooling

I try not to use capital letters for ... but is very dificult
Point 2) and 3) "it can only do good things" ..."thus you will get cooling from the water"

Read more:

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...n/viewall.html


Ok.
All can close the eyes ??
As usual , no common sense???

I think not.





.

Last edited by Mustang; 03-12-2012 at 10:31 PM.
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  #37  
Old 03-12-2012, 10:52 PM
HundertneunGustav HundertneunGustav is offline
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you are trying hard, so
+1 credit for that


yet, a lot of questions remain un-answered.
i know nothing of either cars nor plane engines, so i can only advise to be careful.

a) the system you present is a modern one - differences between modern W/M injection systems and technology from 1942 should, must be studied before claiming "the effect is the same - it cools the engine"

b) are the fluids used chemically the same?

c) how did pilots operate the system? what were their experiences, advantages and drawbacks, dangers?

d) okay, so... lets take it easy. lets say, the engine is cooled. The Db-60x series are a big piece of machinery, so , more specific questions must be figured out.
-what exact part(s) of the engine will lose temperature?
-how much?
-what does that change to engine operation, and how is power output effected?

Because:
uuhhh, ahhhh, modern systems cool the engine, so, in a 109 that means i get -35° temperature loss, and that again means i can have longer MW50 operation...

--> not commonsense, simplification.
and simplification can not be our common goal, or we would be playing Ace combat.
--> common sense is to preserve your engine, because your life depends on it.
--> not closed eyes, no! eyes wide open, and very critical, analytic, observing, asking questions.

Every time you start a flight, you get a perfectly new plane - right? systems are 100% healthy. There is no option to "use the plane from the last flight" - the game does not remember if you respected the manual last time you flew it. if you used MW50 for too long (7 seconds? 2 seconds?) or if you respected the 5 minutes pause (4:55?)

So, by
- misinterpreting engine and boost systems facts,
- and engine manual, and OKL recommendations,
- and 2x10 with 5 min pause could be possibly maybe correct(?)

-> and then getting a new plane for the next flight... that... is cheating.

Recently, TD has taught us to respect the engine, the Hardware:
you pull too many G- you die
you push too many G - you die
you play with the Throttles like a maniac: you die

basically:
You push your plane to the very extreme corner of its possibilities: you die.
Do not do that, or you will die.

so even IF this system could possibly improve performance of the Db-60X powered planes...
you die.

And NOT DYING... is common sense.
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  #38  
Old 03-12-2012, 11:35 PM
Mustang Mustang is offline
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Quote:
a) the system you present is a modern one - differences between modern W/M injection systems and technology from 1942 should, must be studied before claiming "the effect is the same - it cools the engine"
Water cools the engine in present and in 1942 .
Read my link
You can buy and put Water/ Methanol kit in any engine virtually, with the same results .


Quote:
b) are the fluids used chemically the same?
"
Yes common wather and common methanol
No secrets here.


Quote:
d) okay, so... lets take it easy. lets say, the engine is cooled. The Db-60x series are a big piece of machinery, so , more specific questions must be figured out.
-what exact part(s) of the engine will lose temperature?
-how much?
-what does that change to engine operation, and how is power output effected?
The P51 have many problems like this
Quote:
C.C. Jordan=

I have data that indicates that the
P-51D, measures 48 lbs in a 3g pull. Up to 86 Lbs at
5g's.

The P-47D, OTOH, requires just 16 lbs at 3g and 27 lbs at 5g's.
The testers state that the Mustang was a true "two hander".
Just do something.
If special ignore other things
Thanks to these omissions
My P51 can be turn with the BF 109


Ok forget Mustang Sorry




Quote:
Because:
uuhhh, ahhhh, modern systems cool the engine, so, in a 109 that means i get -35° temperature loss, and that again means i can have longer MW50 operation...
The luftwaffe tell you. The mw 50 not work over 6000 mts, for system freezes.

Quote:
Every time you start a flight, you get a perfectly new plane - right? systems are 100% healthy. There is no option to "use the plane from the last flight" - the game does not remember if you respected the manual last time you flew it. if you used MW50 for too long (7 seconds? 2 seconds?) or if you respected the 5 minutes pause (4:55?)
Like the others planes have the same.

For MW50.
"it can only do good things. Since the water and methanol will help dissolve carbon buildup, it can keep your spark plugs, valves, and combustion chambers very clean, too!."


Quote:
basically:
You push your plane to the very extreme corner of its possibilities: you die.
Do not do that, or you will die.

so even IF this system could possibly improve performance of the Db-60X powered planes...
you die.

And NOT DYING... is common sense.

I'll just say one thing

Are debunking current evidence
Of water methanol , Works.

Is a Fact.

Last edited by Mustang; 03-13-2012 at 04:46 AM.
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  #39  
Old 03-12-2012, 11:50 PM
RPS69 RPS69 is offline
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Maybe the right question to ask TD is:

What would be the right plane attitude, to get the fastest possible climb using MW50 to a maximum of 10 minutes in game without overheating the engine?

Every plane has a best speed of climb, which combines engine cooling capability vs engine power applied vs Prop Pitch. No point on getting up there with an useless plane.

If there is an in game, intended climbing attitude with MW50, and it is better than without it, then the point is closed.

Now, if it is there not, Mustang will have the right to paraphrase Oleg himself with a different engineer nationality... "Do you think Russian engineers were morons?!"
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  #40  
Old 03-13-2012, 12:19 AM
Mustang Mustang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPS69 View Post
Maybe the right question to ask TD is:
. "Do you think Russian engineers were morons?!"
Surely not !
The La 5 its a good plane!

Quote:
Due to airflow limitations, the engine boost system (Forsazh) could not be used above 2,000 meters .
Stability in all axes was generally good. The authority of the ailerons was deemed exceptional but the rudder was insufficiently powerful at lower speeds.
Horizontal turn time at 1,000 m (3,281 ft) and maximum engine power was 25 seconds.
But I always see things wrong
I try not to use capital letters for ... but is very dificult



I just have a question.
Someone saw the dive test for BF 109... 906 Kms reached without losing the wings.

In IL2 the Bf 109 loose elevator authority at 470 - 530 Kms... and is wrong.

In dive test With little trim
The pilot pulled out dive just using the stick at 850 kms.

About the 86 lbs in the stick at 5g in the Mustang....
Ok forget Mustang Sorry



.

Last edited by Mustang; 03-13-2012 at 12:46 AM.
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