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Tactics discussions and solutions All you need to win the battle.

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  #1  
Old 08-24-2011, 08:18 PM
Moonheart Moonheart is offline
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Default All "no-loss" strategies

No-loss is perhaps the most popular goal in King's Bounty.

There are, however, only a few strategies that can great a 0 death count at the end of battles once out of Debir island, because have no unit killed soon become a dream that you can only achieve on low difficulty levels.

I'm starting this thread to list up all the strategies that suit a "no-loss" game, starting by the ones I found myself, and letting people add their own later, hoping it could help people or make old players discover tricks they didn't found by themselves yet

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Name: Phantom inquisitors
Type: Infinite resurrection
Works against: Normal troops, heroes
Requierements:
- Inquisitors troops
- Phantasm spell
- Mana accelerator Pet dragon's ability
Optional enhancements:
- Rage predator item
- Resurrection spell
Process:
Just before the end of battle:
- Start to phantom the inquisitors
- Use their rage-producting ability twice
- Use their resurrection ability
- Put a mana ball with pet dragon to recover mana
- Loop back until every lost unit is recovered
Failure conditions:
- Having the full stack of inquisitors killed with no external mean to resurrect them
- End the batlle with an ennemy unit that kills faster than you can resurrect

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Name: Droid army
Type: Infinite resurrection
Works against: Normal troops, heroes
Requierements:
- Droid-only army with a stack of Repair droids split in two stacks
Optional enhancements:
- Phantasm spell
- Fear spell
- Slow spell
Process:
- Juste abuse the Repair ability of droids
Failure conditions:
- Having one of your droids pack fully destroyed

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Name: Invisible stack
Type: Total damage prevention
Works against: Normal troops, heroes
Requierements:
- An army made of a single stack of high-initiative troop
- Invisibility spell
Optional enhancements:
- Emerald Green Dragons (can recover mana)
- Dark-blue pet dragon (increase initiative of dragons)
- Hatred Mask item
- Belt Mana Well item
- Rage Predator item
Process:
Each turn:
- Cast Invisibility on your stack
- Wait
- Attack once everything opposing troop is defending
Failure conditions:
- Loose all mana before the ennemy is defeated
- Face "eyeless" opponents (like droids) that you can't kill before they kill one of your units

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Name: Turn Back Time loop (Single stack)
Type: Infinite resurrection
Works against: Normal troops, heroes, boss
Requierements:
- A single stack army made of resiliant creatures
- Turn Back Time spell
- Magic Spring spell
- Calm Rage spell
Optional enhancements:
- Level 5 unit (immune to control spell, see below. Recommanded: Red Dragons against boss, Green Dragons against heroes, Dark Knights with Splinter of Darkness item against normal troops)
- Belt Mana Well item
- Rage Predator item
- Death Star spell
- Frenzy ability
Process:
- On odd turns:
---- if you need mana and have enough rage, cast Calm Rage III
---- if you need mana and have not enough rage, cast Magic Spring III
---- otherwise, cast an offensive spell
then attack with your stack
- On even turns: Make your stack wait, cast Turn Back in Time, attack if you can kill something without taking losses
Failure conditions:
- Having your full stack killed
- Having your full stack out of control (Charm, Hypnosis, Sheep or Fear)

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Name: Turn Back Time loop (army)
Type: Infinite resurrection
Works against: Normal troops, heroes, boss
Requierements:
- An army made of resurrectable units with a stack of Inquisitors and/or paladins
- Turn Back Time spell
- Magic Spring spell
- Calm Rage spell
Optional enhancements:
- Belt Mana Well item
- Rage Predator item
- Death Star spell
- Resurrection spell (in case of Inquisitor/Paladin's death)
Process:
- Process like Single-stack Turn back in time strategy, using it on your Paladins/Inquisitors
- Before the end of battle, be sure to have ressurected any lost unit with your troop's resurrection ability
Failure conditions:
- Having your full stack of Inquisitor/Paladins killed and not enough mana left to use Resurrect them
- Having allied troops' corpses consummed by ennemy Thorns or Necromancers

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Name: Camp fire
Type: Infinite resurrection
Works against: Normal troops, heroes
Requierements:
- one stack of Red Dragons
- one stack of units able to loop-summon thorns (Dryads, Royal thorns)
- Resurrection spell
- Sacrifice spell
- Transmute ability
Optional enhancements:
- Belt Mana Well item
- Rage Predator item
- Eviln spell (allow you to include undead in your army)
Process:
Before the end of battle:
- Start to loop summon thorn
- Kill them with Red dragons' Fire Flood ability
- Recover mana from it with your transmute ability
- Cast Ressurection to recove any damaged 1-4 units, and use Sacrifice on some thorns to recover any lost level 5 unit
Failure conditions:
- Having the stack of Red Dragon killed
- Having the stack of thorns summonners killed without enough mana to Resurrect them

--------------

Name: Resurrection Book
Type: Infinite resurrection
Works against: Normal troops, heroes
Requierements:
- a army with one stack of units able to loop-summon thorns (Dryads, Royal thorns) but limited enough in size to not summon stacks that Evil Book III can't devour
- Evil Book spell
- Resurrection spell
- Sacrifice spell
- Transmute ability
Optional enhancements:
- Belt Mana Well item
- Rage Predator item
- Eviln spell (allow you to include undead in your army)
Process:
Before the end of battle:
- Cast Evil Book
- Start to loop summon thorn
- Make the Evil Book eat them all
- Recover mana from it with your transmute ability
- Cast Resurrection to recover any damaged 1-4 units, and use Sacrifice on some thorns to recover any lost level 5 unit. You can also cast more Evil Books to eat thorns faster
Failure conditions:
- Having the stack of thorns summoners killed without enough mana to Resurrect them
- Forget to keep enough mana to cast Evil Book



Feel free to suggest your own strategies

Last edited by Moonheart; 08-25-2011 at 07:04 AM.
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  #2  
Old 08-25-2011, 05:49 PM
Moonheart Moonheart is offline
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Not found or tested by me, but seems popular around:


Name: Dark Knights
Type: Infinite resurrection
Works against: Normal troops, heroes, boss
Requierements:
- a army made with only one stack of Dark Knights
- Calm Rage spell
- Mana Well spell
- Eviln spell
- Moro companion
- Splinter of Darkness item
Optional enhancements:
- Belt Mana Well item
- Rage Predator item
- Turn Back Time spell
Process:
- Move your Dark Knights in the middle of opponents army, keeping one move point left
- Make the stack wait
- Let the infinite retaliation coming from the dark splinter slash the ennemy troops
- If you have more than 34 mana, that about 30% of the knights are dead, there is a free square with a dead corpse besides the knights, cast Eviln III and move the knights on the square
- Otherwise, cast Calm Rage or Mana Spring on the Knights and attack if something is within reach
- Start again, rince, repeat
Failure conditions:
- Having the stack whole stack of knights killed
- Having the stack of knights turned into sheeps (prevent you to cast anything)
- Fightning a army made only of droids (no corpses to recover loses)
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  #3  
Old 08-26-2011, 03:12 PM
ShuiMienLung ShuiMienLung is offline
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As additional refinements to some of those strategies:
- My recollection is that Transmute only gives +1 mana from summoned stacks (thorns, friendly gremlins, et cetera), so that could be a very time-consuming way to increase your mana.
+ Having a demonic or undead item suppression is a MUCH better way to do infinite loops since you can get +1 (or 2 or 3, if you have more ranks in the Mind skill) just for attacking an undead or demonic stack, as well as mana from Transmute for killing it.
+ If you have few enough red dragons and enough thorns in stacks to survive/can cast Fireballs that are weak enough, you can do end-of-turn Mana Spring on one thorn, breathe with the dragons, and beginning of turn Mana Spring the next turn to get +10 mana from burning thorns (five from each of two stacks for however long the spring-with-burning lasts);
+ Remember to Phantom your Paladins, so that the Phantom can resurrect dead (possibly Sacrificed?) Paladins themselves. When the Paladins are back up to nearly-full, you can let the last of the Phantoms die (maybe send them out to wait-before-fighting the last enemy stack you're keeping around?) and use the Paladins' own single-shot resurrect at that point.
- Be cautious with the Black Knights (and demons & executioners, and griffins & royals) that you do not move them TOO close to the enemy stacks; you need one to be kept alive (at the end of turn 1) so that there IS a turn 2, in which to have the Eviln take effect on the Knight.
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  #4  
Old 08-26-2011, 10:33 PM
Moonheart Moonheart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShuiMienLung View Post
- My recollection is that Transmute only gives +1 mana from summoned stacks (thorns, friendly gremlins, et cetera), so that could be a very time-consuming way to increase your mana.
+ Having a demonic or undead item suppression is a MUCH better way to do infinite loops since you can get +1 (or 2 or 3, if you have more ranks in the Mind skill) just for attacking an undead or demonic stack, as well as mana from Transmute for killing it.
*nods* In fact the best way to use this strategy is probbably to make an army with Demons, Demonologists and Red Dragons, and raise the mind ability "Holy Anger" to level 3.
This way, Red Dragons can use Fire Flood on the demons that Demons and Demonologists summons.

1- Those creatures are fire-resistant, so they will stay longer alive to provide mana
2- Each strike on them will provide you +3 rage and +3 mana... so assuming you build a full row of them (about 6-7), that's +18 rage and mana every turn.
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  #5  
Old 08-28-2011, 05:56 AM
MaroonMaurader MaroonMaurader is offline
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A lot of the cheesier no-loss strategies are two-part. Part one is an infinite-mana combo of some sort, while part-2 is a way of transforming that into infinite resurrection. Infinite mana combos usually rest on (ab)use of Mana Spring or getting infinite rage and transforming it into mana via Calm Rage or the Mana Accelerator. There's probably a dozen variations on a theme there, but most of them are fairly obvious. There's also a few creative ones involving summons and the Transmute and/or Holy Anger skills. If you've got infinite mana, Phantom, Sacrifice, Resurrection, and often Turn Back Time can all let you transform a Pyrrhic victory into a no-loss win.

The second big category of no-loss strategies relies on creating an invincible or near-invincible tank. Early in the game, Trolls at night will do this. You can combo items and spells on several level-4 and level-5 units to get 95% damage resist, then pair that with the Archmage shield and the Target spell (or just use the stack solo) to make a really tough tank. Invisible Emerald Green Dragons is a favorite of mine, although it takes a fair amount of leadership before you can get enough mana from them to keep re-casting Invisibility. A variant on this is the summoned meatshield. Royal Gryphons give you a nice summon for this purpose; early in the game, royal thorns can do well with this if you can get some.

The third major category of strategies is simply to not let them hit you. Whether it's using a high-level army and getting opposing units with Fear, using a solo stack that is very fast and just running away while you do your damage with spells, creative use of Trap, the Stone Wall, and other spells/abilities to stall the enemy, the Berserk spell... if the enemy isn't attacking you, you aren't taking losses.

There's a couple strategies that don't pigeon-hole neatly into these categories. Repair Droids are a unique and extremely powerful option for infinite resurrection, and a reasonably good combat unit as well. If you can get a high enough INT and enough Astral resistance (at least the Crown of Chaos from the Gift Bag), Armageddon becomes a terrifying spell to open up fights with. You can go from "badly outnumbered" to "where did everyone go" in just 2-3 turns. I suspect there's a few more in this group I've forgotten at the moment.

Fundamentally, all these tricks help, but they aren't enough by themselves. What will really swing things from "near-impossible" to "cakewalk" is careful thought and planning when you decide which items to equip. You want them to synergize... if you're going to equip some items that give physical resist, equip all the items you can that give physical resist. If you're going to get some +INT items, equip all the +INT items you can. If you're going to equip items that boost ranged units, equip all the items that boost ranged units. Equipping a few items boosting INT, a few items boosting resist, a few items boosting DEF, and so forth is just not as useful. You want your items to give you a strength, then play to that strength.
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  #6  
Old 09-02-2011, 02:08 PM
dainbramage dainbramage is offline
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I don't think cheesy play is necessary in AP. I've done 3 impossible no-loss runs in it. One was black knights + eviln, one was nuking (a single cast of black hole could kill 70% of an enemy army in reha o.O). The other was a more standard 5-stack army (except for bosses). On the other hand I had to resort to double armageddon + time back a few times in KBTL.

Dragons are amazing early on, especially since you're guaranteed the free emerald one you get on scarlet wind. Throw stone skin on a green dragon and keep it healed and it can tank the entire enemy army until you get to verona. Once you can get them in reasonable numbers paladins take over as the best tank in the game... and on top of that they get an amazing resurrection and a free fit of energy. You don't even really need to worry about losing them. Cast magic spring on them, then run them into the enemy. Paladins take hits, you get mana, phantom paladins, paladins get resurrected.
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  #7  
Old 09-04-2011, 08:40 AM
MaroonMaurader MaroonMaurader is offline
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A strategy that lets you defeat an army with a higher-level hero and five times your leadership without losses is a cheesy strategy. Either you've abusing a game mechanic, or you're abusing AI stupidity. So yes, no-loss on impossible does require cheese.
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  #8  
Old 09-05-2011, 02:31 PM
Moonheart Moonheart is offline
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Not even that, but any kind of infinite loop is a kind of cheese.

In this regard, Paladin + Phantom, Black Knight + Eviln or nuking doesn't seems to me less cheesy than anything else above, Dainbramage, simply because in the last boss fights, the amount of units you have to raise or the amount of direct damage you have to pull to end the fight costs above > 1000 mana.

Such a high amount of mana doesn't come without cheese. Never.

Mostly it's done using the insane bugged rage generation + Calm Rage and/or the IA stupidity in front of a single stack enchanted with Magic Spring, but still, it's a kind of cheese: you can win any fight when you go through infinite loop strategy, providing you make your units last long enough to exploit it.

The only non-infinite loop I see pass through Baal is the one I used at the last fight of my no-loss campaign:

Name: Curse of Ghosts
Type: Loss/Ressurection balancing
Works against: Normal troops, heroes, boss
Requierements:
- a army made with only one non-full stack of Cursed Ghosts
- the 25% physical resistance item
- full +defense oriented equipement
- Stoneskin spell
- Teleport spell
Optional enhancements:
- Eviln spell
- Lifeforce spell
Process:
- Before the fight you must balance the size of your stack to avoid the either to have it killed by not having enough regeneration power, or have it become wild by haveing too much. It's a difficult guess, but most often 75% of your leadership is a good mark.
- Keep your ghosts under Stoneskin to hit the 95% physical resistance mark. Teleport them close to units doing non-physical damage to kill them first.
- Use Eviln when the stack is running too low, and Lifeforce to damage it when it's running too high.
Failure conditions:
- Having the stack go out of control. It is a very difficult process in many fights: Of all the strategies I know able to reach a no-loss score, it is the one with the highest reload rate since you can loose by either by being too weak and being too strong, so a good calculation of your own strength versus opponents is requiered at almost every round of every fight to not mess up.
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:59 AM
dainbramage dainbramage is offline
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Against the bosses:

kraken and spider I used a 5 stack army
frog, driller, ktahu and baal I used knights + paladins
zilgadis I used paladins only


The knights weren't needed except against k'tahu, since the tirex fear will make you lose with one stack if it isn't immune to mind spells. I didn't need to cast calm rage at all in the boss fights. Frog didn't need any phantoms, driller one, k'tahu and baal 2, zilgadis 3 iirc. The kraken and spider didn't kill a single unit.

I had to cheese my way through a level of the tower of eventus since it kept crashing (the clone room, a single stack of peasants and killed his army with fiery phantoms first turn).

Other than that, I finished at level 60, 32att/25def/25 int, a bit over 44k leadership with inquisitor's blade and dragon heart for more paladins and dragons. Most commonly used army was rune mages/paladins/black dragons/red dragons/engineers. Most damaging units were black, red, paladins, rune mages, engineers, royal snakes, knights. No pre scout or save game scan, honestly it's about as cheese free as you could get. Battles were won through smart play and a good army composition. Spells like target and stoneskin are in the game for a reason, it's not cheese to use them.

Last edited by dainbramage; 09-06-2011 at 08:03 AM.
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  #10  
Old 09-06-2011, 09:19 AM
Moonheart Moonheart is offline
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Ok, I understand from your explanation why we have such a different view about the strategies.
From your sole leadership count and stats, I can guess you were playing warrior class, which is significiantly easier than the mage no-loss impossible run I did.

Under the mage class, you end the game near of level 55.
Your defense rating is lower, so your paladin stack takes about 10/15 loss EVERY turn against Baal despite of a high-ranked stonekin (70+ intelligence), meaning you just CAN'T keep it alive without casting Phantom almost every turn. Which requiers LOTS of mana you can't simply have without cheese.

Also, your attack rating is lower and you have 50% less units due to your leadership. Which means a boss like Baal have lots more rounds to live before you can reduce his hp to 0, and since his stacks increase of size at each summon, it leads to a point were archdemons simply starts to reach the leadership mark where the "halve" ability triggers... leading to 50+ losses in one strike.

Those facts put aside makes than your "you don't need cheese" point of view is understandable, but just not valid for everyone.
You can't expect to make a paladin stack survive boss runs when you're a mage without "cheesing". Because the paladins are nor as strong, nor as resilient than if you were a warrior so you have to make up for their "weakness" with spells... lots lots of spells.

As I said, the only way I know to not enter this logic, with a mage, is to use ghosts, which are both resilient to the most common attacks of enemy units and able to regenerate themselves without forcing you to use mana. Which leaves you free to not use infinite loopholes to regenerate it insanely... at least if you are able to keep the ghosts away from running wild.

Last edited by Moonheart; 09-06-2011 at 09:23 AM.
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