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IL-2 Sturmovik: Birds of Prey Famous title comes to consoles.

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  #1  
Old 12-25-2009, 11:40 PM
SgtPappy SgtPappy is offline
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Default What's the best way to...

... Split-S, high/low-yoyo and otherwise change direction?

It seems that as I attempt to gain angles on the opponent, I see myself having to do multiple high-yoyos just to stay in the turning circle, even if I'm in the same aircraft. Sometimes, when I'm at the top of the high yoyo, my plane seems to freeze and it takes ages to get my nose back down again. I'm not used to something like this in other sims; almost stopping when I'm slow. In those sims, my Spitfire is one of the best planes in maneuvering combat under 200 mph. In this game, my aircraft feels way too sloppy under 200.

It seems that just to pull a very tight vertical turn, I have to enter a controlled stall at the top and simply fall. Sure it works, but the time it takes to get into position makes me vulnerable so I can't always do that.

I've tried to really stay at the corner velocity of my Spitfire, but that velocity seems far to high to reach often. Meanwhile, everyone else is turning faster than myself. I've been using combat flaps a lot and very rarely, even landing flaps just to get that extra lift. Am I using them wrong?

How do I best and quickly execute a high yoyo, or some other fast direction-changing maneuver?
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  #2  
Old 12-26-2009, 03:04 AM
flynlion flynlion is offline
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Since any video game will understandibly have a very limited field of vision, I almost always lose sight of my opponent when I try to yo-yo at speed. With this game I find that the only way to change direction quickly is to back off throttle sharply for just a split second as I enter the turn, then add power as soon as I can once my turn is established. This is one aspect of flight sim games that is decidedly UN-realistic, as one would almost never reduce power in a live aircraft in actual combat, and one would certainly never abuse a turbo-charged piston aircraft engine the way we do all the time in BoP. I also never heard of "combat flaps" before I started playing video games. The Spitfire for example had split flaps with only 2 settings, full up or down 90 degrees. Why would anyone add the drag of a split flap before entering combat? All this game play add on stuff may take away from the realism, but it is also fun so what the heck.

Last edited by flynlion; 12-26-2009 at 06:46 AM.
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  #3  
Old 12-26-2009, 09:32 AM
kozzm0 kozzm0 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtPappy View Post
... Split-S, high/low-yoyo and otherwise change direction?

It seems that as I attempt to gain angles on the opponent, I see myself having to do multiple high-yoyos just to stay in the turning circle, even if I'm in the same aircraft. Sometimes, when I'm at the top of the high yoyo, my plane seems to freeze and it takes ages to get my nose back down again. I'm not used to something like this in other sims; almost stopping when I'm slow. In those sims, my Spitfire is one of the best planes in maneuvering combat under 200 mph. In this game, my aircraft feels way too sloppy under 200.

It seems that just to pull a very tight vertical turn, I have to enter a controlled stall at the top and simply fall. Sure it works, but the time it takes to get into position makes me vulnerable so I can't always do that.

I've tried to really stay at the corner velocity of my Spitfire, but that velocity seems far to high to reach often. Meanwhile, everyone else is turning faster than myself. I've been using combat flaps a lot and very rarely, even landing flaps just to get that extra lift. Am I using them wrong?

How do I best and quickly execute a high yoyo, or some other fast direction-changing maneuver?
It is a big risk to vertical turn a spit- I look for when they do it too slow, and nail them. A slow plane is easy to hit.

There's only one real reason to do it - quick angles leading to a sure shot. If your opponent fails to dodge, you'll get the angles just by reducing the turn radius so much. The problem is you can't turn well at the top of the turn, and your opponent can easily roll out of the way if they see you.

I read somewhere authoritative that the spitfire mk 2's corner speed was around 270 (kph). I think it was in the pilot's manual, either that or an e-m diagram someplace. It seems about right but in BOP I think it's more like 300kph. That would be, about, hmm, about 187mph.

The best opportunity for yo-yo's is near the beginning of the fight, when you've got plenty of speed and can quickly trade it for altitude. But if you find you're chasing some snail pilot round and round at 250kph, you're both below corner speed. The target sacrifices turn rate for low turn radius in a desperate bid to generate angle-off-tail. If you simply try to get inside their circle, you end up making the same trade of high turn rate for low turn radius.

Suppose you don't constantly try to reduce AOT to zero? (this is called "lag pursuit" in the US). Instead keep your plane faster, nearer its corner speed. You'll stay outside the target's circle, but you'll also turn your circle faster than they turn theirs. This means that as long as you're careful not to give them a chance to switch direction and make you overshoot, you break the stalemate. With you doing faster circles, they can't catch you; but since your circles are faster, you can catch them. That's not what you do of course, with lag pursuit catching them would just be passing them on the outside. Instead, you maintain the same distance behind them by trading the extra turn rate for altitude.

When it's done right, this tilts your circle until the top of it is inside your target's circle. That is when you pull max-g and make the low-radius move, turning lag pursuit into lead pursuit.

Also, don't let your eyes deceive you about how fast someone is turning. You can both be turning at a faster rate, yet see the opponent generate AOT by turning lower radius. And even if you're doing the same turn rate and turn radius, they can still get angles because the centers of your turn "circles" are not the same. So no matter which way you turn, the attacker is likely to get at least one shot. That's why lead pursuit is more immediately dangerous, but also risky, because it is much easier to make a lead pursuer overshoot.

When you've got a lead pursuer bearing down on you (when you look all the way up, there they are in the middle of the screen), you need to do more than just pick a direction and turn. If you've got a spit or a hurricane, you can try flat scissors, but they'll still get at least one shot. The attacker's "guns plane" is a 2-d region delineated by the longitudinal and vertical axes of the fighter; meaning their goal is to get you either above or below their fighter's nose and then fire a long burst while keeping you on that line. If you turn as hard as you can, you reduce your ability to roll, giving the attacker the time they need to line you up in their guns plane. But if you roll instead, they can't keep you in their guns plane. The best they can do is roll also, then maneuver for a quick shot as you pass through their guns plane.

Last edited by kozzm0; 12-26-2009 at 09:39 AM.
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  #4  
Old 12-27-2009, 05:57 AM
SgtPappy SgtPappy is offline
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I have been meaning to learn how to utilize the lag persuit more effectively. In Aces High II, I used that tactic often with great success in the P-38, but the flight dynamics are different here.

If you have a video of a lag pursuit, I'd like to see that.

Yes, I noticed that executing a rolling scissors can be very effecient to reduce the chances of getting downed by an enemy, but the flight slows down very quickly and I can't seem to stay within corner speed as well as my opponent. Any way to do so in a slo battle like a rolling scissors?

So far I've just been retracting flaps as I dive and drop them into combat position as soon as I start pulling up from 0 fpm climb on the variometer. At the top of the loop, I raise them, dive, rinse, wash, repeat.
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  #5  
Old 12-27-2009, 10:56 AM
kozzm0 kozzm0 is offline
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The rolling scissors is one of my favorite moves, except when I fight Mirgervin, who does it better than me, and counters better when I try to start one.

Almost the sole objective of a rolling scissors is to minimize your forward velocity. It's not important to maintain corner speed, because you get angles by adding the 3d spiral element just like in a Lufbery. It's a way of getting a high degree-of-turn rate at reduced speed. It's almost like a battle of barrel rolls, and you can do those at almost whatever speed. Just keep the speed high enough to maintain the maneuver, and no more.

apply power on the climb, and reduce throttle on the dive. Make the climbs and dives as steep as you can without losing track of the opponent or allowing them space to attack. I can tell you one well-known trick that's supposed to work, but I've never quite been able to do it: at the start of the climb end of a rolling scissors, stop rolling when your plane is level, apply max throttle and pull up to a vertical climb, going higher than the scissors was; then roll 180 and pull the nose down so your plane is inverted horizontal. At this point you should see the opponent in the climb phase and slightly in front, because you momentarily reduced your horizontal V to zero. Pull the nose straight down (facing the direction the scissors is coming from), dive a bit, then roll 180 towards the opponent as they go over the top of their circle. At this point you should be able to keep the throttle low and simply keep rolling until they're in front.

If you can make this work, congratulations - I can't. It also may take more than one high climb to make some opponents overshoot. I just adapt the concept to the basic maneuver - try to move up and down as much as possible, instead of forward.

Last edited by kozzm0; 12-27-2009 at 11:05 AM.
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  #6  
Old 12-27-2009, 12:53 PM
PantherAttack2 PantherAttack2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flynlion View Post
Why would anyone add the drag of a split flap before entering combat? All this game play add on stuff may take away from the realism, but it is also fun so what the heck.
I'm no expert on this, but the whole point was to gain an advantage in maneuverability, although at the cost of speed. As far as I'm concerned, combat flaps are a realistic element and is nothing made-up. In BoP, some planes shouldn't have combat flaps, but that doesn't mean all of them shouldn't.
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  #7  
Old 12-27-2009, 02:44 PM
flynlion flynlion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PantherAttack2 View Post
I'm no expert on this, but the whole point was to gain an advantage in maneuverability, although at the cost of speed. As far as I'm concerned, combat flaps are a realistic element and is nothing made-up. In BoP, some planes shouldn't have combat flaps, but that doesn't mean all of them shouldn't.
Pulling G with flaps deployed is an excellent way to cause structural damage. If anyone can come up with a single example of WW2 fighter that had a recomended "combat flap" setting, I would love to see it. Might be an interesting research project

Last edited by flynlion; 12-27-2009 at 02:48 PM.
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  #8  
Old 12-27-2009, 04:09 PM
PantherAttack2 PantherAttack2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flynlion View Post
Pulling G with flaps deployed is an excellent way to cause structural damage. If anyone can come up with a single example of WW2 fighter that had a recomended "combat flap" setting, I would love to see it. Might be an interesting research project
I would love to see that too.

And, as I said I'm not an expert at all, but it seems to me like opening flaps to a small degree does help. Obviously you shouldn't have flaps on landing in a dogfight, but flaps at lower angles may help. That's what it looks like, anyways.
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  #9  
Old 12-27-2009, 06:08 PM
winny winny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flynlion View Post
Pulling G with flaps deployed is an excellent way to cause structural damage. If anyone can come up with a single example of WW2 fighter that had a recomended "combat flap" setting, I would love to see it. Might be an interesting research project
Harold W. Scruggs, 24 May 1944, 339th FG "I lowered about 10 degrees flaps and made two 360 degree turns in which I gained rapidly on the E/A…"

Capt. Bradford V. Stevens, 12 September 1944, 339th FG "…I was able to turn inside the Me 109 after dropping 20° flaps."

2nd Lt. Myer R. Winkelman, 6 August 1944, 339th FG "I put down 20° flaps and got on his tail."

2st Lt. S. K. Moats, 29 July 1944, 352nd FG I dropped 20 degrees flaps and after 2 more turns I was closing on the tail of the E/A."

Lt. Glennon T. Moran, 27 May 1944, 352nd FG "We fought for about 20 minutes and it was necessary for me to put down combat flaps three times in order to turn with him."

Major George E. Preddy, 21 June 1944, 352nd FG "He turned into me and I dropped 20 degrees of flaps, out turning him."

1st Lt. Arthur C. Cundy, 14 January 1945, 353rd FG "With throttle pulled back and full flaps down, I overshot this 190."

1st Lt. William J. Cullerton, 2 November 1944, 355th FG "I started to overshoot so I dropped full flaps and gave him another long burst just as he was leveling off to land."

Capt. Walter V. Gresham, 15 August 1944, 355th FG "I downed 40 degrees of flaps and got in another burst which hit him hard."

Capt. Fred R. Haviland, 21 June 1944, 355th FG "At 1,000 feet, I dumped 20 degree flaps and made a turn inside him and started to get within firing range, when the E/A made an abrupt turn, snapped over and crashed into the ground, exploding as he hit the ground."

2nd Lt. Esward Moroney, 2 November 1944, 355th FG "...I put down full flaps and closed on the E/A."
2
All taken from pilots after action reports. (All Mustang pilots) It seems tha 20 degrees was the "combat flap setting"

Last edited by winny; 12-27-2009 at 06:10 PM.
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  #10  
Old 12-27-2009, 06:13 PM
kozzm0 kozzm0 is offline
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the fw-190 had hydraulic or electric flaps that could be set at full landing, or at a slight 15-degree takeoff/maneuvering setting. It didn't help much, but it had an effect.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...90/eb-104.html

You're right about the spitfire though: no combat flaps on that thing. landing, or nothing. Giving it a combat setting in BOP gives it an unfair advantage. In real life the 109f had a smaller minimum turn radius.
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