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IL-2 Sturmovik The famous combat flight simulator.

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  #31  
Old 05-01-2008, 04:59 PM
Golf Pro Golf Pro is offline
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The trouble with 0.50's is a lot to do with AI FM. When you get hit by them yourself, while rarely fatal in the first burst, they generally have sufficient effect to curtail effective manoeuvring of your plane.

However, the AI generally control their planes just as well even with quite extensive damage, which leads to the rather tedious process of chipping away at them until they fall out of the sky.

The only solutions to this are either to become an expert in one type of 0.50-armed plane so that you can pull off the kind of convergence/deflection shots that will get you a quick kill, or to switch to a cannon-armed plane, and not worry so much about expertise, as you can get first-burst-fatal shots in with less precise shooting.

I prefer to do the latter, and am therefore in the "0,50s are lame" camp.
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  #32  
Old 05-01-2008, 06:02 PM
mondo mondo is offline
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I don't agree. Getting your convergance right and getting some personal discipline to fire only at that convergence isn't that hard.

I think the real problem is managing peoples expectations. People see gun cam and think why can't I do that? Then you go back to the gun cam and look at just how close the planes were to each other. That never seems to be taken up by any forum discussions on the .50 topics, all 50 bazillion of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain32 View Post
And if you really read all those pilot accunts you posted here, none of them was dead six shot, the most usual line being "...I observed strikes over fuselage and cockpit...".
Well ofcourse the .50 could penetrate plexiglass, especially at deflections you see comonly described in those pilot accounts, that's hardly an achievement.
I think thats part of the problem. People sit behind the dead 6 of a 190 at 500m, shoot 1000 rounds and see 50 strikes and expect miracles. The British did those tests on the 190 and showed that at a distance firing on a dead 6 at the 190 won't do particularly much unless you get lucky. More to the point, as you say, I don't think I've ever seen gun cam footage of a fighter destroying another fighter with .50's at 500m on its dead 6, more like 100m to 150m.
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  #33  
Old 05-01-2008, 06:19 PM
Thunderbolt56 Thunderbolt56 is offline
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Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha View Post
Testing the new moderator are we ???



Seriously though this thread is redundant.


lmao...ya think?
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  #34  
Old 05-01-2008, 07:50 PM
*Buzzsaw* *Buzzsaw* is offline
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The Cal50 bullets do their damage primarily through inertial energy, they lose effectiveness dramatically over that distance and they scatter a lot more. Convergence at 300m means that a lot less bullets actually hit the convergence-point than at 150m range.
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The .50s hit great and they do quite a bit of damage period.
The challenge with them is their accuracy in the game. Wheather it's right or wrong it really doesn't matter but the fact is they aren't very accurate far out.
We have people admitting the .50 calibre is not accurate at range, here is the first example of why the modelling is wrong.

Anyone who has bothered in the slightest to look at ballistics and how slug design affects it will understand that the .50 calibre round has excellent accuracy characteristics over distance.

There are two main reasons for this.

Aerodynamics in a projectile shape require a tapered, sharp pointed tip, and a 'boat tail', or tapered rear, with the taper starting at about the mid point of the round and extending to the rear, for maximum efficiency. The .50 calibre round satisfies both of these criteria.





That is in contrast to rounds such as the MG151/20 or Mk 108 whose ballistic aerodynamics are very poor. Both of these have rounds with flat noses, and no boattailing to the rear. The Mk 108 is the second from the left below in the first photo, and the MG151/20 (20 X 82) is the fourth from the left in the second photo.





Rounds with poor shape will lose speed much faster, and diverge from their path more often.

The other major factor in ballistic efficiency is muzzle velocity. The .50 calibre round has a muzzle velocity of 880 meters per second compared to the MG151/20 at 725 m/s and the abysmal Mk 108 at 505 m/s. The Mk 108 will suffer a bullet drop nearly twice as far as the .50 in the same distance.

All of these factors combine to give the .50 cal a much better accuracy at range than these other two weapons. So to find that the .50's are less accurate at range in the game has to raise questions.

Last edited by *Buzzsaw*; 05-01-2008 at 08:31 PM.
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  #35  
Old 05-01-2008, 10:45 PM
Brain32 Brain32 is offline
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Actually, atleast on western front, 50cal IS the most accurate weapon and has the greatest range, for example after 800m mk108 round dissapears, this does not happen with 50cal all the way to 1800m.
What does happen though, they are not that powerfull at greater distances, that's probably because...====NEWSFLASH====...physics affects the super holy mighty planet destroyer a.k.a. 50cal too and it too looses hitting power as it travels.

The only thing you might have on in-game 50's is tracer visibility, they are really hard to see comparing to other bullets/shells, but all those fairy tales in effort to really make them planet destroyers are hilarious
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  #36  
Old 05-01-2008, 11:06 PM
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DKoor DKoor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain32 View Post
Actually, atleast on western front, 50cal IS the most accurate weapon and has the greatest range, for example after 800m mk108 round dissapears, this does not happen with 50cal all the way to 1800m.
What does happen though, they are not that powerfull at greater distances, that's probably because...====NEWSFLASH====...physics affects the super holy mighty planet destroyer a.k.a. 50cal too and it too looses hitting power as it travels.

The only thing you might have on in-game 50's is tracer visibility, they are really hard to see comparing to other bullets/shells, but all those fairy tales in effort to really make them planet destroyers are hilarious
+1

Last edited by DKoor; 05-01-2008 at 11:09 PM.
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  #37  
Old 05-01-2008, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mondo View Post
I don't agree. Getting your convergance right and getting some personal discipline to fire only at that convergence isn't that hard.

I think the real problem is managing peoples expectations. People see gun cam and think why can't I do that? Then you go back to the gun cam and look at just how close the planes were to each other. That never seems to be taken up by any forum discussions on the .50 topics, all 50 bazillion of them.



I think thats part of the problem. People sit behind the dead 6 of a 190 at 500m, shoot 1000 rounds and see 50 strikes and expect miracles. The British did those tests on the 190 and showed that at a distance firing on a dead 6 at the 190 won't do particularly much unless you get lucky. More to the point, as you say, I don't think I've ever seen gun cam footage of a fighter destroying another fighter with .50's at 500m on its dead 6, more like 100m to 150m.
+1


In game we can rip the **** out of any aerial target at 200m with .50cals.

Dead 6.
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  #38  
Old 05-02-2008, 03:38 AM
WeedEater WeedEater is offline
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.50's either preform miracles or end up making you wish you had cannons as your victim slowly coaxes his crate home. An example happened to me not to long ago. I was in a P-51D when a FW-190 bounced me. The Focke-Wolf pilot came out of the dive and pulled into a screaming near vertical climb. He was about 450m away from my gunsight when I fired a short burst in desperation. Luck would have it that he lost a wing. For any plane, the trick is convergence. Also, you can try shoot in a way that your bullets will slice through like a buzzsaw (enemy is flying level, you fly with 90 degree bank). A big plus is that you got more ammo.
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  #39  
Old 05-02-2008, 09:44 AM
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  #40  
Old 05-03-2008, 05:23 PM
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Mysticpuma Mysticpuma is offline
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I posted this a while back on the Ubi Forums. Basically the only way to get the .50 Cal to work is:

"To be honest I have also been in the "The .50's are porked" Brigade, but then I started watching my tracks back.

At times when I was sure I'd waited for the correct moment to open fire, when the enemy was filling the gunsight, I'd open fire and watch as my multiple hits did barely any damage and the 190 and 109 would turn onto me until I was dead!

How could this be, "the .50's are porked!" I'd shout, and , well, no they aren't!

I watched my tracks back and was amazed to see my bullets converging about 40-50 metres short of the target, and while 2-3 would hit (giving speckled debris), most of them had spread out way before hitting my intended target and gone either side. However, my initial burst, while inflicting little damage, had alerted the pilot of the EA...and he was off before I could actually take him down.

This is where you need (if you want the best from the .50-cals) to spend a little time, to make a lot of difference.

Set up a mission off-line, and to make it easier you can create a single mission with a friendly aircraft flying in a straight line and you are a separate flight (so it doesn't manoeuvre with you) . Now sneak up on the friendly plane as it flies straight and level and imagining it's an enemy plane get to the point where you would normally shoot. Ok, unleash your guns and then stop the mission and play back the track (of course you can play against an enemy for realism!).

So watch the track and as you fire pause the playback. Hit the F2 key and go outside the plane to the point here the bullets are converging (not hitting the plane (unless you are spot-on with your attempt)).

So now you can see where they are converging you can then start to work out of you need to set your convergence further or shorter than you have it now.
For example your convergence is 300m for both Cannons and MG. You look at the paused track and see that the bullets are crossing approx. 100-metres ahead of the EA (or friendly drone as you created that mission ). So now go back to your arming screen and decrease the convergence to 200m and replay the mission. Trial and error will get you to your sweet spot and then you will see what the .50-cal can do.

So what did I do after reviewing my tracks? Well I was set at 300 and 275 but now I have changed my settings to 200MG and 200C (even though they are all 50's!).

My first three sorties out were a revelation.
Destroyed were 3x190's and 1x109 on my first sortie.Second Sortie 2x190 1x190 and 1xJU-88 (head-on PK attack) and the Third Sortie 2x109's and another JU-88 along with 2x109's damaged while attacking a friendly.

All I'd say is set your convergence, watch your tracks and then post that the .50's are porked.....they're not...and I used to believe they were.

Now Armour Piercing incendiary in the load-outs on the Extra Ammunition as a sub-setting would be the best addition to the P-47 series since it was introduced...but the only reason I mention it is because this is a wish list for 4.09....so .50's porked....Nah!

Hope that helps, cheers, MP.
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