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IL-2 Sturmovik The famous combat flight simulator.

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Old 03-12-2010, 07:17 AM
Feuerfalke Feuerfalke is offline
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Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar View Post
Thats a widely used mis-imagination. At least in fighter planes pilots were strapped and the cockpits somewhat narrow, so a full 6DoF movement was unrealistic either, esp. in dogfight situations. Some head leaning left and right and on over shoulder looks would be realistic and desirable.
While the argument itself is valid, the conclusion is not.

In reality the pilot is strapped in place, granted, but when turning his head, the eyes usually located in the forehead-region for most human pilots are automatically moved, the field of view shifted. That way it's e.g. easy to look around headarmor, simply because when turning the head sideways the eyes are much closer to the canopy-side than when looking forward. Not to mention the wider field of view.

In IL2 the eyes are stuck in one centered point and turned - a Pilot would break his neck each time he checks his six, if this would be realistic, and the view is limited to less than 1/2 the natural field of view.

So technical issues aside, realism is most surely not the argument for no 6DOF in IL2.
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Old 03-12-2010, 08:16 AM
MikkOwl MikkOwl is offline
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I have been using 6DoF and 2DoF (default) since mid-december. Here is my feedback on what I felt was positive and negative about them:

  • Can look over the shoulders rearward (a most desired realistic feature) instead of having to use the work-around of turning the whole plane to see into a blind-spot that should not be there to begin with.
  • Can see to the side of gunsights.
  • Can see over the edge of the cockpit a little bit giving some downward vision to the sides, saving the need to roll the airplane.
  • Can see instruments behind the control column without moving the column itself.
  • Can lean a bit and towards any instrument and be able to actually read every single instrument that the aircraft is equipped with without resorting to SPEEDBAR and other HUD stuff.
  • Can lean a bit to the right to align eyes with gunsights
  • And when looking through these (centered or offset) gunsights, can lean forward to see through them. The combination of this and the one above is an amazing feeling!
  • Can tilt the head to the left and right when banking the plane, to align eyesight with horizon more (AMAZING feeling of being airborne for real! Looking down a little to see the ocean and the aircraft wing pointing toward it, waaah I am in an airplaaane that is turning close to the water!)
  • When climbing, or diving, can tilt the head (again) when looking to the sides over the wings, to align head with horizon more. Gives, like when banking, an amazing immersive feeling of actually climbing in a plane and a much better understanding of how steep a climb/dive is.
  • Can move head to see past the blind spots behind canopy frame/bars instead of MOVING THE WHOLE PLANE. Mega immersive feeling.
  • Can to some extent look a little bit over the nose, which makes landing and taxiing more immersive and less blind.
  • Noticing all kinds of cool details in cockpits and out through the canopy on the wings, tail etc that that were never visible before because the view was locked (Ju-88 and its curtains on the canopy for example).
  • The size of own aircraft and cockpit becomes more noticable. I never realized how beefy the IL-2 really was until 6DoF. Pretty cushy big cockpit, big solid wings, etc. Bombers even more so.
  • The cockpit, the feeling of being there, it comes 'alive' and feels like something I could reach out and touch. The feeling is so totally different (better). In my whole gaming career (started in 1985) this is the biggest, coolest development for immersion in games since 1997 with 3DFX VooDoo graphics cards that showed 640x480 in high framerate, bilinear texturing filter, mip maps - it was so "Woooooow!!!!!". I have gone on 'joy ride' flights with no enemies, just flying around over terrain in various airplanes, doing acrobatics or other fun things - close to ground, flying low along rivers, under bridges (I consider myself very talented - can come in at crazy angles and speeds and still make it all the time. Can even fly inverted under low bridges) smiling constantly and looking around, feeling free and like I really am in an airplane (yes, no G-forces.. but so much of the rest is there. It's pretty close). I never did that before 6DoF because 2DoF never gave any feeling/immersion like this.
  • A few aircraft have missing panels when moving the head far in certain directions. It felt like any of the other many minor cosmetic oddities that IL-2 has (like extremely polygonal pilots, awful blurry textures in places and so on - it does not stand out as anything special).
  • Some aircraft have unrealistic and awkward head center position making it almost impossible to look through the gunsight without some head tracking re-centering tricks (i.e. move head far in opposite direction, click 're-calibrate center' button, then move head back to normal, and the gunsight can be reached). Me-262 and the Horten 229 are examples of this. This problem, although only existant in a few aircraft, is noticable and the centering position of those aircraft should be re-positioned to a realistic head position.
For 2DoF, invert the list above except head alignment issue above (because that problem also exists with 2DoF). That means that 2DoF mode has one thing positive - a couple of graphical blemishes are not possible to be seen. While the negative list is very long and severe.

From time to time I have flown a bit in 2DoF and it is so handicapped/restricted/unimmersive, I just cannot stand it. I stopped ever doing that again and I never will. The view is all.. static. It's like I can't move, I'm stuck, the neck and head are tightly welded to the headrest and no amount of straining can break free of these chains. Only the eyes can move.. a little. It almost makes me motion sick It plain sucks. 6DoF makes it into a whole different game as far as the experience goes. It is a super huge improvement in every area. The graphical glitches are small things compared to how many other really unrealistic problems are solved. Enormous gain with minimal trade-off.

If for example, something was done to make 6DoF not available through any means anymore, I would absolutely just give up on IL-2 all together, because 2DoF is THAT bad compared to how amazing 6DoF is. Once getting to taste it, there is no going back (same as with my good headphones compared to all the ones I had before. Bigger monitor vs small, fast computer vs slow, bluray vs DVD).

Last edited by MikkOwl; 03-12-2010 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:52 PM
zaelu zaelu is offline
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I've been a user of sHr's 6DoF implementation for IL-2 series since first releases. I never looked back at standard 2DoF since.

The most used cockpits (109's and 190's for example) have been fixed by other players not to correct some unwanted advantage in dogfights (a lousy excuse IMHO for not wanting a full 6DOF in IL-2) but to make it enjoyable at the new level of realism. Sure some look back views still shows some misalignments and bits missing but thats livable with and same "bugs" are seen even in that game "Wings of Prey" and no one died yet of it.

sHr's implementation needs an update and needs to be kept compatible with the new versions of the game.

As for realism debate... I let it to others cause some see only the good parts and some only the bad parts. Unfortunately, as in Wide Screen issue debate, the ones that sees only the bad parts have the knife and the bred.

I for sure will stop playing IL-2 the moment 6DoF will not be supported by newer versions. Cause for me was the thing that got me back to it.

my 2 cents...
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:08 PM
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Tte. Costa Tte. Costa is offline
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Originally Posted by zaelu View Post
Cause for me was the thing that got me back to it.
Same here.
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Old 03-12-2010, 03:03 PM
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tagTaken2 tagTaken2 is offline
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As far as I remember, almost of the planes in Pacific Fighters had full 6dof cockpits modelled. Everything prior to that is hit and miss, but a surprising number of planes in 1946 had full cockpits.
Totally worth trying, you might find your favourites are glitch free.
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Old 03-12-2010, 03:16 PM
TheFamilyMan TheFamilyMan is offline
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Posts: 29

IMO the IL-2 6dof genie is out of the bottle. If TD decides that 6DOF will be prevented from being enabled in a future release then I (as well as our squad) will stop using the latest release. IL-2 6dof is far too immersively seductive for all the excellent reasons given above, and it's the only reason I'm 'unclean'.

Last edited by TheFamilyMan; 03-12-2010 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:49 PM
Majo Majo is offline
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Default it is a must...

Like I said,

It is a must...

We must keep exhorting!!!

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Old 03-13-2010, 06:02 AM
Desode Desode is offline
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Posts: 249

Geez, I never expected for my post to head in this direction.
I do agree that this should be able to be done in a limited way so that it is better then what we currently have.
I do kind of understand that SOW is on the way and TD seems to feel that SOW is going to take the place of IL2.

I have to disagree on that point.
Its going to be a long time before SOW reaches the expansive level of Il2s current scope of theatre.

When SOW comes out I will be there with bells on from day one, BUT I will still be flying in Il2 on a weekly basis.
Il2 1946 has many years left in it for me.

I want to thank everyone for their PM's with the info I was looking for, Thank you very much.
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