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  #1  
Old 08-08-2012, 07:51 AM
BlackBerry BlackBerry is offline
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Default diving extension/pitch-back

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With an inferior aircraft, victory in one-versus-one combat must come
through superior tactics and better technique. Because energy tactics are
so much more complex than angles tactics, they tend to magnify variations
in pilot ability. This is one reason energy tactics are recommended
for this scenario. Another factor is the increased time involved. Besides
prolonging the agony, energy techniques may allow the pilot of the inferior
184 ONE-VERSUS-ONE MANEUVERING, DISSIMILAR AIRCRAFT
fighter to hold the opponent off until he loses interest or is forced to
withdraw for fuel considerations. The high-G descending nose-to-tail turn
is ideal for this purpose. If the opponent is equipped with RQ missiles, this
tactic may allow the pilot of the inferior fighter to hold the bogey just far
enough off the tail to prevent a weapons firing while he unexpectedly
reduces power or uses speedbrakes to slow down and thereby generate
rapid closure with the opponent. Then at the critical moment he can make
a break turn toward the bogey to produce an overshoot. If the bogey pilot
does not recognize this ploy soon enough and immediately quarter roll
away and pull up, the inferior fighter may be able to reverse for a cheap
shot. If the bogey does pull up nearly vertically, the defender may have a
chance to unload and accelerate down and away, generating separation to
prolong the fight, or even causing the bogey pilot to lose sight. When the
bogey is gun equipped, the defender should expect a snapshot prior to the
overshoot and be prepared to defeat it with a sharp, out-of-plane jink.
Climbing extension/pitch-back tactics cannot be expected to work for
the inferior fighter in this scenario, since the opponent has a P s advantage.
The other energy tactics discussed, which are intended to bleed the bogey's
energy with a nose-to-tail turn (or nose-to-nose in the case of a very small
bogey or one equipped with all-aspect missiles), can still be effective
against an inexperienced or a careless opponent.
The following episode, found in Thunderbolt! by the World War II
USAAF ace Robert S. Johnson, is one of the best examples available of the
use of energy tactics (diving extension/pitch-back) to defeat a doublesuperior
opponent. The encounter described is a mock combat engagement over England between Johnson (P-47C) and an unidentified RAF pilot
in a new Spitfire IX. The Spitfire had about a 25 percent better power
loading and nearly a 25 percent lower wing loading. The Thunderbolt's
only performance advantages were faster top speed, greater acceleration in
a dive (because of the P-47's heavier weight and higher density), and better
roll performance. (See the Appendix for a discussion of roll and acceleration
performance.) Johnson, undoubtedly one of the greatest natural
fighter pilots of all time, used his roll performance defensively to allow
himself the chance to build an energy advantage in a diving extension.
We flew together in formation, and then I decided to see just what this
airplane had to its credit.
I opened the throttle full and the Thunderbolt forged ahead. A moment
later exhaust smoke poured from the Spit as the pilot came after me. He
couldn't make it; the big Jug had a definite speed advantage. I grinned
happily; I'd heard so much about this airplane that I really wanted to show off
the Thunderbolt to her pilot. The Jug kept pulling away from the Spitfire;
suddenly I hauled back on the stick and lifted the nose. The Thunderbolt
zoomed upward, soaring into the cloud-flecked sky. I looked out and back;
the Spit was straining to match me, and barely able to hold his position.
But my advantage was only the zoom—once in steady climb, he had me. I
gaped as smoke poured from the exhausts and the Spitfire shot past me as if
I were standing still. Could that plane climb! He tore upward in a climb I
couldn't match in the Jug. Now it was his turn; the broad elliptical wings
rolled, swung around, and the Spit screamed in, hell-bent on chewing me up.
ONE-VERSUS-ONE MANEUVERING, DISSIMILAR AIRCRAFT 185
This was going to be fun. I knew he could turn inside the heavy Thunderbolt;
if I attempted to hold a tight turn the Spitfire would slip right inside me.
I knew, also, that he could easily outclimb my fighter. I stayed out of those
sucker traps. First rule in this kind of a fight: don't fight the way your
opponent fights best. No sharp turns; don't climb; keep him at your own
level.
We were at 5,000 feet, the Spitfire skidding around hard and coming in on
my tail. No use turning; he'd whip right inside me as if I were a truck loaded
with cement, and snap out in firing position. Well, I had a few tricks, too. The
P-47 was faster, and I threw the ship into a roll. Right here I had him. The Jug
could outroll any plane in the air, bar none. With my speed, roll was my only
advantage, and I made full use of the manner in which the Thunderbolt could
whirl. I kicked the Jug into a wicked left roll, horizon spinning crazily, once,
twice, into a third. As he turned to the left to follow, I tramped down on the
right rudder, banged the stick over to the right. Around and around we went,
left, right, left, right. I could whip through better than two rolls before the
Spitfire even completed his first. And this killed his ability to turn inside me.
I just refused to turn. Every time he tried to follow me in a roll, I flashed away
to the opposite side, opening the gap between our two planes.
Then I played the trump. The Spitfire was clawing wildly through the air,
trying to follow me in a roll, when I dropped the nose. The Thunderbolt
howled and ran for earth. Barely had the Spitfire started to follow—and I was a
long way ahead of him by now—when I jerked back on the stick and threw the
Jug into a zoom climb. In a straight or turning climb, the British ship had the
advantage. But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter
that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. Before the
Spit pilot knew what had happened, I was high above him, the Thunderbolt
hammering around. And that was it—for in the next few moments the
Spitfire flier was amazed to see a less maneuverable, slower-climbing Thunderbolt
rushing straight at him, eight guns pointed ominously at his cockpit.
LOL,for a P47C, could easily dive from spitfireIX, extend s far away,and zoom up out of spitfireIX shooting range, and fight back using enough energy advantage which is built up during high speed zoom period.

Low altitude, 1 vs 1, boom&zoom, easily solve the spitfire@your 6. It sounds impossible for Il2 FM.

Last edited by BlackBerry; 08-08-2012 at 07:53 AM.
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  #2  
Old 08-08-2012, 09:21 AM
RegRag1977 RegRag1977 is offline
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Wink I would like to see that il Il2 too

Interesting read from "Fighter Combat" by Shaw.

It could indeed be nice to have two ace pilots from our community to fly and record the engagement such as described in your post to show other less skilled pilots how to fight with the Jug (in the IL2 1946 environment and at the same altitudes). I'm sure it would be very instructive.

Last edited by RegRag1977; 08-08-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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  #3  
Old 08-09-2012, 02:05 PM
BlackBerry BlackBerry is offline
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Originally Posted by RegRag1977 View Post
Interesting read from "Fighter Combat" by Shaw.

It could indeed be nice to have two ace pilots from our community to fly and record the engagement such as described in your post to show other less skilled pilots how to fight with the Jug (in the IL2 1946 environment and at the same altitudes). I'm sure it would be very instructive.
Yes. but I doubt that P47C could beat spitfire IX at low alt in il2.
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  #4  
Old 08-09-2012, 08:43 PM
Pursuivant Pursuivant is offline
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Originally Posted by BlackBerry View Post
Yes. but I doubt that P47C could beat spitfire IX at low alt in il2.
Possibly, maybe.

Quick combat in IL2: 1 Ace Spitfire LF IXc vs. 1 Ace P-47D-10, 2000 meters, Normandy map. ~20 trials with AI on for both planes.

P-47D-10/Spitfire wins about 45% of the time, with about 10% double-kills.

But, the only time the P-47 wins is if it takes out the Spitfire in the first head-on pass. If the Spit survives the first pass with its engine running, it wins the fight.

As always, even Ace AI shows a suicidal tendency towards head-on passes against well-armed foes. AI P-47 pilots almost never use the plane's superior roll rate to make barrel rolls - just aileron rolls. Also, they never use the plane's superior speed to extend range to break off the fight or "drag the fight upstairs" where the jug would have the advantage.

That aside, if there were two human opponents facing off, and they were both smart enough to avoid head-on passes, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

But, that might just be realistic. In the historical dogfight described above, Shaw refers to Robert Johnson as "one of the greatest natural fighter pilots" while we don't know how good the Spitfire pilot was.

Also, it was a mock dogfight, so there was no damage. The Spitfire was in a position to take shots which could have ended the fight before Johnson was able to get into firing position.

So, realistically, in a maneuver fight at low altitude, the Spitfire's superior overall maneuverability, climb rate and cannon armament might give it the edge over the jug's slightly better speed, zoom climb and roll rate.
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Old 08-10-2012, 12:02 AM
BlackBerry BlackBerry is offline
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But, that might just be realistic. In the historical dogfight described above, Shaw refers to Robert Johnson as "one of the greatest natural fighter pilots" while we don't know how good the Spitfire pilot was.
1)P47C, not P47D. AI is stupid.
2) when P47C begins to dive, even a rockie pilot of spitfire could push full forward throttle with 3000rpm engine. A ace for spitfire? no help.

3) in Il2, you even can not extend to a safe distance beyond spitfire IX shoot range if both have similar initial energy. Leave alone "Pitch back".
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  #6  
Old 08-10-2012, 12:19 AM
BlackBerry BlackBerry is offline
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Originally Posted by BlackBerry View Post
1)P47C, not P47D. AI is stupid.

2) when P47C begins to dive/zoom, even a rockie pilot of spitfire could push full forward throttle with 3000rpm engine. A ace for spitfire? no help.

3) in Il2, you even can not extend to a safe distance beyond spitfire IX shoot range if both have similar initial energy. Leave alone "Pitch back".

Quote:
But, that might just be realistic. In the historical dogfight described above, Shaw refers to Robert Johnson as "one of the greatest natural fighter pilots" while we don't know how good the Spitfire pilot was.

Also, it was a mock dogfight, so there was no damage. The Spitfire was in a position to take shots which could have ended the fight before Johnson was able to get into firing position.
Johnson said
Quote:
But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. because of the P-47's heavier weight and higher density.
Don't forget spitfire cut short way to pursuit P47C when p47 zooming up.(45 degree? 60 degree?), and couldn't get closer. That's enough.

If I am the P47C pilot caught by a spitfire IX below 5000ft(1500m) alt, the first step is "dive extend" to 800-1000m safe distance, at this time, both are near deck. Then I begin to zoom carefully keeping spitfire IX from entering 500m shooting range. Is that possible? Johnson said spitfire can't get closer. LOL . Finally, when I begin to hammer around, I should be out of spit shoot range, 600m? Furthermore, this is not only 600m distance, but also 600m higher. Only with this energy advantage, could I turn back and point my guns to spitfire. Isn't it? If I get only 200-300m higher, I can barely turn back to spitfire.

When P47C vs SpitIX mock combat(1942late -1943 mid), there was no Tempest. In 1944, allied knew that Tempest could outdive/outzoom P47 slightly/somehow.

BTW, spitfire IX F,HF, even LF could outclimb P47C/D-early at high altitude,ie 8000m high. Funny. Of course, P47Dlate P47M/N is another story, P47M =Spitfire XIV @climb high alt.

Last edited by BlackBerry; 08-10-2012 at 12:35 AM.
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  #7  
Old 08-11-2012, 12:15 PM
Pursuivant Pursuivant is offline
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Originally Posted by BlackBerry View Post
1)P47C, not P47D. AI is stupid.
Sadly, the P-47C isn't in the game, even though it was the pioneering U.S. long-range escort fighter in the ETO. The only razorback jug available is the P-47D-10. You go with what you got.

But, you make a good point. The P-47D had a vastly improved rate of climb, so there's no excuse for it to get consistently out-climbed by the Spitfire in the game, especially when zooming.

AI isn't bad, other than being aggressive about taking head-on shots. Not up to an ace human pilot's skill, but challenging enough for ordinary players. But, it certainly doesn't know how to take advantage of the P-47's strong points.

My point was that the P-47 isn't as hapless in the game as people claim it is, although it certainly isn't going to win a maneuver fight against a Spitfire with its current FM/physics modeling.
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Old 08-10-2012, 09:19 AM
RegRag1977 RegRag1977 is offline
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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Possibly, maybe.


But, that might just be realistic. In the historical dogfight described above, Shaw refers to Robert Johnson as "one of the greatest natural fighter pilots" while we don't know how good the Spitfire pilot was.

Also, it was a mock dogfight, so there was no damage. The Spitfire was in a position to take shots which could have ended the fight before Johnson was able to get into firing position.

So, realistically, in a maneuver fight at low altitude, the Spitfire's superior overall maneuverability, climb rate and cannon armament might give it the edge over the jug's slightly better speed, zoom climb and roll rate.
Good points.

However we must take into consideration that Shaw refers to Johnson's book in order to make a "scientific" point: it IS possible for a heavy energy fighter such as the P47 to win against T/B fighter in a dogfight.

Here P47 wins -no question- against Spitfire.

It is not just about pilots different skill levels (ace vs noob), it is about what can be done if an aircraft is flown correctly. Remember that Shaw does NOT care about opinions: he rather tries as engineer and pilot to make scientific statements (read: things that actually work in the real world) about how one can win against a disimilar aircraft. His book is something that must help fighter pilots to survive and win, not something that could lead to death.

Surely Shaw would not make a statement or illustrate a point with an inapropriate example: he knows what he's talking about. I don't see why he would describe a mock combat if it was of any use in an actual combat. My understanding is: during a well executed engagement a properly flown P47 could hold the fight against a properly flown Spitfire.

This is why i find BlackBerry's questionning very interesting and why i wanted to ask for aces pilots around here to do a demo showing how it is possible to hold a fight in a P47 against a Spitfire under 5000 ft ceiling.
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Old 08-11-2012, 12:20 PM
Pursuivant Pursuivant is offline
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Originally Posted by RegRag1977 View Post
This is why i find BlackBerry's questionning very interesting and why i wanted to ask for aces pilots around here to do a demo showing how it is possible to hold a fight in a P47 against a Spitfire under 5000 ft ceiling.
I'd love to see this myself. I'd also love to try to do it myself but I don't fly online and I don't have rudder pedals. There's no way I can take advantage of the P-47's strengths if I can't do a decent barrel roll!
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Old 08-11-2012, 01:36 PM
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FC99 FC99 is offline
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Originally Posted by RegRag1977 View Post
This is why i find BlackBerry's questionning very interesting and why i wanted to ask for aces pilots around here to do a demo showing how it is possible to hold a fight in a P47 against a Spitfire under 5000 ft ceiling.
This is only possible if you have Spitfire pilot who is willing to "cooperate". In other words, if Spitfire pilots knows what he is doing, P-47 can't do anything in a dogfight with Spit, in game and in RL.

And when we are quoting Shaw this is the part that precedes the paragraph quoted by BlackBerry.

Quote:
Climbing extension/pitch-back tactics cannot be expected to work for
the inferior fighter in this scenario, since the opponent has a Ps advantage.
The other energy tactics discussed, which are intended to bleed the bogey's
energy with a nose-to-tail turn (or nose-to-nose in the case of a very small
bogey or one equipped with all-aspect missiles), can still be effective
against an inexperienced or a careless opponent.
Key part being "inexperienced or a careless opponent".
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