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  #1  
Old 11-13-2013, 07:30 PM
TinyTim TinyTim is offline
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Default P-39 performance after engine damage

I've noticed all too often (online) that a damaged P-39, which shows no visible external damage, but starts trailing smoke due to received hits, suffers no noticeable instant performance drop, as well as no gradually increasing performance degradation with time after receiving damage. After a 109 or a P-51 engines would looong have stopped after the "broken wheelcart" sound that we all know, P-39 still runs like new. I'm not claiming it happens always - just claiming it happens often.

I know very well any kind of supporting material should be presented, however I don't have any. I can't check the code of the game myself, plus it's a hard thing to test and confirm in game environment. The only thing I can offer is "I feel" based on online play experiences.

As only one of numerous examples: A few weeks ago I witnessed a smoke-trailing P-39 staying in combat at medium to high altitudes about half an hour after the smoke started, with no obvious performance drop or degradation.

Since the Aircobra presents one of the pillars among the fighters (imagine russian front or early pacific without it), I've decided to post this here anyway, hoping anyone could look into this. Especially on Pacific it can happen quite often that the Aircobra receives just a few bullets from lightly armed Japanese planes which cause no external damage, but do cause smoking. Combining this to long ranges, it's kind of a fun breaker if the plane returns to a base 300km away like nothing happened.
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  #2  
Old 11-14-2013, 01:20 AM
Igo kyu's Avatar
Igo kyu Igo kyu is offline
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I find the P39 blows up killing the pilot if the engine is hit most of the time. Other planes if the engine catches fire, you more often than not have time to get out, with the P39, it's the other way, you might get out if you're quick, but you usually won't (in 4.07). This is in single player offline.
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Old 11-14-2013, 07:53 AM
Baddington_VA Baddington_VA is offline
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I have also seen this happen online with the P39.
The amount of smoke that trails would indicate it has had it's day.
But it then pulls away seemingly undamaged, continues climbing, engaging and shooting down other fighters, as if there is no damage at all.
All the time it leaves a thick trail of black smoke.
I would have it at a guess, that the smoke deceptively outweighs the actual damage done.
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:00 PM
gaunt1 gaunt1 is offline
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Maybe P-39 behaves differently online?
Offline, I dont think that there is such problem. P-39 is one of the most vulnerable planes, incredibly easy to ignite. Did a little test, I flew an 1942 Hien (which has weak firepower), and I was able to set the P-39 ablaze even with one short burst 3 out of 5 times.
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  #5  
Old 11-14-2013, 10:01 PM
TinyTim TinyTim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaunt1 View Post
Maybe P-39 behaves differently online?
Offline, I dont think that there is such problem. P-39 is one of the most vulnerable planes, incredibly easy to ignite. Did a little test, I flew an 1942 Hien (which has weak firepower), and I was able to set the P-39 ablaze even with one short burst 3 out of 5 times.
Yes, I agree with all you wrote, it's a fairly vulnerable plane. However I'm describing a different situation - when a P-39 is damaged only so much that it starts smoking and no more (no fire etc.). It can then sometimes fly on as if undamaged. That's what's unrealistic, smoking = loosing a vital fluid.
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:31 AM
Pursuivant Pursuivant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyTim View Post
I've noticed all too often (online) that a damaged P-39, which shows no visible external damage, but starts trailing smoke due to received hits, suffers no noticeable instant performance drop, as well as no gradually increasing performance degradation with time after receiving damage.
It works like that offline, too. Whenever I'm in the mood for a bit of target practice against easy victims, nothing compares to the P-39. At low to medium altitudes, it's my bomber killer of choice; the perfect antidote to sniper-like AI rookie gunners and their super-duper, laser-targeted, depleted uranium, high explosive, incendiary, neurotoxin-coated engine, control cable and pilot killing 0.30 caliber MG bullets.

Compared to delicate flowers like the F6F, P-47, P-51, P-40, P-38, Hurricane and Bf-109, the P-39 series is tough as nails. Not only can the engine run indefinitely with little or no performance drop after it starts smoking, and not only does the engine never die on you, the pilot is also invulnerable to hits from the front which would kill a lesser man driving flying bits of tin-foil like the P-40, F6F, F4U or P-47. Additionally, the "Iron Dog" never suffers from control hits and its guns never gets jammed.

My cynical guess is that somebody at 1C had a serious case of hero worship for the the Soviet P-39 pilots when the game was designed. My slightly less cynical guess is that there's something seriously wrong with critical hit and engine-damage modeling for the P-39!

Alternately, compared to "one hit wonders" like the Bf-109, P-40, P-51 and many other planes which are extremely vulnerable to instant engine or control cable kills maybe the P-39 is the one plane which actually models the toughness of WW2 era planes.

Last edited by Pursuivant; 11-15-2013 at 07:37 AM.
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  #7  
Old 11-15-2013, 02:10 PM
Mabroc Mabroc is offline
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Regarding engines DM from other forum where I did the same question 2 years ago:
The DB and Jumo engines cook very quickly when damaged, if the engine is smoking it dies in 3 or 4 minutes (depends on the power setting), if you are leaking it start to overheat pretty quickly at combat power and dies in 5m top, only going to cruise power give you more time to escape, but in no way you can pull the crazy stunts the P-39/63 does at full power when leaking or even smoking.

Very few times I got a engine instantly stop with the dead prop, but it happens, sometimes I saw hits then a high pitch from the RPM controller going out of control and the engine seized. The radial engines can survive hits and still work for long times, giving less power off course (less pistons working) if you are not loosing much oil or fuel (usually the fw190 get the fuel lines leaking on the cowling and even when the engine still works you loss all your fuel in 3m). Sometimes I noticed hits on La-5 cowling (little bullet holes) and no leaking whatsoever but that could be right or error on the damage decal.

There are several DM errors on the planes, a structural weakening MOD by damage limiting the maximum G stress allowed would fix for example when you put 1 or 2 MK108 shells in a P-51 wing or P-47 mid fuselage (did that yesterday) and the damn plane keep fighting, turning, diving at full combat power. Only showing some holes on the skin instead of breaking the plane. The now very limited G stress will only allow for a escape run, if the plane keep tryng to fight, it should break right there. So the errors on the DM would now be atoned at least in a simple and broader way. No need to check and fix every f%&%ck·$ing plane DM.

AND

OIL (pilot manual) 9.4 gallons (35.58 Litres) for the P-39 L/K
P-39Q 8.2 US Gallons (31.04 Litres)
P-63 used the same engine (more advanced model only) and similar airframe, couldnt get the manual but from all the warbirds I found OIL tank info, they were pretty much equal size, even the P-38 had a similar sized tank for each engine to the Spit or Mustang

For comparison:
The Spitfire XIV, without a long-range tank, carries 110 gallons of fuel and 9 US gallons of oil.

Bf-109G2 One light-metal oil tank, type NKF. Oil capacity 8.1 gallons (30.66 Litres) with an additional air space of 1.3 gallons.

The Mustang III with maximum fuel load has between 1.5 and 1.75 the range of a Spitfire IX with maximum fuel load. The fuel and oil capacities are 154 gallons and 11.2 gallons respectively, as opposed to 85 gallons 7.5 gallons of the Spitfire IX, both without long-range tanks
NOTE: PROBABLY IMPERIAL GALLONS BECAUSE 7.5 Imperial gallons = 9.00712816 US gallons

SOURCES:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/tec...nfo-10838.html
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/oth...ons-20503.html
http://www.kurfurst.org/Tactical_tri..._WdimPerf.html
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-tactical.html

So.....can we get a ending to the "Highlander" Allison engines now??? By the way, the oil tank on the P-39 is behind the engine, close to the tail, so when you get a 6 o clock shot at them that is the first thing to get screwed.

AND REMEMBER GUYS THAT BESIDES THAT "BUG" I WAS WONDERING ABOUT A "COMBAT DAMAGE REDUCING G STRESS ENVELOPE LIMIT" MOD
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  #8  
Old 11-15-2013, 03:18 PM
gaunt1 gaunt1 is offline
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Quote:
My cynical guess is that somebody at 1C had a serious case of hero worship for the the Soviet P-39 pilots when the game was designed. My slightly less cynical guess is that there's something seriously wrong with critical hit and engine-damage modeling for the P-39!


And I thought that the developers were biased towards Lavochkins only...
Anyway, La-5/7 also has similar problems (ultra tough engine), although to a lesser degree. I would be happy if the R-2800 would be at least half as tough as this.

Last edited by gaunt1; 11-15-2013 at 03:22 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-15-2013, 04:26 PM
The_WOZ The_WOZ is offline
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I have talked about this on other thread, a few planes in the game lack a 3D damage model, among those is the P-39 and Ju-87 families.
In these planes internal systems damage is calculated at random when a bullet hits the fuselage.

The P-39/63 have two oil tanks, a big one on the rear for the engine and smaller one in the nose for the propeller shaft reduction gear

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  #10  
Old 11-16-2013, 01:04 AM
Pursuivant Pursuivant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_WOZ View Post
I have talked about this on other thread, a few planes in the game lack a 3D damage model, among those is the P-39 and Ju-87 families.
That would do it. I've been flying a lot of missions flying the P-39 vs. lightly armed bombers in arcade mode (to track where bullets hit my plane). For planes with an actual damage model like the Bf-109 or P-40, a single rifle caliber bullet in the right place is often enough to kill the engine, pilot or controls. But, since the total number of bullets I collect overall tends to be low, that means that there's very little chance of a random critical hit with the P-39.
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