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IL-2 Sturmovik The famous combat flight simulator.

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  #291  
Old 09-24-2010, 11:37 PM
Sternjaeger
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Originally Posted by Splitter View Post
It's not joking about a nuclear holocaust (I'm not sure that the partial destruction of two cities qualifies as a holocaust though...), it's joking about our far different views of the world. It's like someone asking me how I shine my jackboots or me asking someone on the left how it feels to hug a tree or why all the streets leading to Paris are lined by trees.

Stereotypes. There is humor there. I disagree with people, but that doesn't mean I hate them. Hopefully they feel the same. Joking about the stereotypes diffuses our....disagreements.

Splitter
trust me, the RAF strategic bombing of Germany was indeed holocaust, I had several exams at uni on the matter. In 1940 Winston Churchill said: “You must understand, that this war is not against Hitler or National Socialism, but against the strength of the German people, which is to be smashed once and for all, regardless whether it is in the hands of Hitler or a Jesuit priest.”
If that isn't racial hatred..

The nukes in Japan were a mixed matter of racial hatred and political interest: the Americans invested shedloads of money on the Manhattan Project and needed to show the Russians who had the bigger stick by the end of the war..
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  #292  
Old 09-24-2010, 11:46 PM
dduff442 dduff442 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sternjaeger View Post
trust me, the RAF strategic bombing of Germany was indeed holocaust, I had several exams at uni on the matter. In 1940 Winston Churchill said: “You must understand, that this war is not against Hitler or National Socialism, but against the strength of the German people, which is to be smashed once and for all, regardless whether it is in the hands of Hitler or a Jesuit priest.”
If that isn't racial hatred..

The nukes in Japan were a mixed matter of racial hatred and political interest: the Americans invested shedloads of money on the Manhattan Project and needed to show the Russians who had the bigger stick by the end of the war..
Gaaah.... You know full well that Churchill felt that placing Germany in a permanently subordinate position would have left Britain 'manacled to a corpse' as he memorably phrased it. His concern was to break a mindset, not a country.

Ironically, area-bombing of cities was almost declared a war crime in the early 30s. The treaty was blocked by two countries: Britain and Germany.

Germany trashed Warsaw, Rotterdam and London. In 1940, it was widely believed that 30,000 had died in Rotterdam.

Maybe strangely given the tone of the era, racism was never a major feature of propaganda against Germany. Japan, on the other hand, was portrayed in explicitly racist terms.

dduff
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  #293  
Old 09-25-2010, 12:38 AM
Splitter Splitter is offline
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Originally Posted by dduff442 View Post
Gaaah.... You know full well that Churchill felt that placing Germany in a permanently subordinate position would have left Britain 'manacled to a corpse' as he memorably phrased it. His concern was to break a mindset, not a country.

Ironically, area-bombing of cities was almost declared a war crime in the early 30s. The treaty was blocked by two countries: Britain and Germany.

Germany trashed Warsaw, Rotterdam and London. In 1940, it was widely believed that 30,000 had died in Rotterdam.

Maybe strangely given the tone of the era, racism was never a major feature of propaganda against Germany. Japan, on the other hand, was portrayed in explicitly racist terms.

dduff
Here I agree. WWII was the second time Germany had kicked up a war in less than half a century. We can argue about whether or not they were forced into WWII, but the fact remains that they started it lol. There was absolutely a determination in the Allies to eliminate the mind sets that had lead Germany into two world wars.

Racism was present on several fronts. People look at the Nazi regime, their propaganda, and what they did to certain groups of people, but the most racist mindset in the war was Japanese. As a culture, they looked down on every other culture and race. In their minds, it was their destiny to rule Asia and they certainly saw themselves as superior to the western races. This was evidenced by the systematic atrocities committed by Japanese forces which were sanctioned by the government.

You just don't spit babies on bayonets unless you feel they are less than human.

Was there a bigoted element against Japan? Certainly. If you look at the propaganda of the time, the Japanese were portrayed as evil. There was even a belief, prior to the war, that the Japanese could not fly planes because of poor eye sight...no lie. Yes, people were that stupid.

However, the dropping of the A-bombs was about destroying the mindset of the Japanese just as the destruction of Germany was aimed at destroying their mindset. Through invasion or annihilation, the Allies were determined to eliminate Japan as a future threat and to occupy the country.

People want to point to the decision to drop the bombs as a war crime. The best argument to this is to look at how Japan was treated after surrender....which was with great kindness and respect considering the destruction they had brought about. That may have actually been MacArthur's greatest service in his life.

Destroying the mindset that lead to aggression is the one and only way to end a war for good. Harsh but true. If you leave the mindset in place, another war is inevitable.

By the way, in reading journals of American soldiers and watching interviews, I have very seldom heard one express hatred for the German people (I actually heard it most blatantly last night from an American P-51 ace). However, there was certainly a high level of hatred for the Japanese military forces far in excess of what was felt against Germans. Even then, however, I have seen little hatred expressed against the Japanese people except by some surviving POW's.

Lastly, most of what many call "racism" is actually just bigotry. Bigotry is ignorance. Racism is hatred.

Splitter
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  #294  
Old 09-25-2010, 02:23 AM
ATAG_Dutch ATAG_Dutch is offline
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Blimey, Xilon's posts are always a bit off the wall, but they usually cause some hot debate or other.
Do you think he does it deliberately just to wind everyone up and then study the English used?
Or is he not Italian at all and just a wind-up merchant?
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  #295  
Old 09-25-2010, 02:38 AM
Splitter Splitter is offline
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Originally Posted by Dutch_851 View Post
Blimey, Xilon's posts are always a bit off the wall, but they usually cause some hot debate or other.
Do you think he does it deliberately just to wind everyone up and then study the English used?
Or is he not Italian at all and just a wind-up merchant?
Xilon is a character invented by one of the members of the development team. He is their Lady Gaga.

They laugh.

Splitter
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  #296  
Old 09-25-2010, 11:45 AM
rakinroll rakinroll is offline
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Xilon's posts are could be funny but he is much more humanist than the others who believes bombing the civilians.
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  #297  
Old 09-25-2010, 01:07 PM
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Xilon_x Xilon_x is offline
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we are human beings build houses and even cars planes trains and arms also commit mistakes. and human mistakes.
IN ENGLISH

a great tribute to the legendary James Brown on my part
IN ITALIAN

remember is a simulation not real life.

Last edited by Xilon_x; 09-25-2010 at 01:21 PM.
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  #298  
Old 09-25-2010, 03:56 PM
Splitter Splitter is offline
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Originally Posted by rakinroll View Post
Xilon's posts are could be funny but he is much more humanist than the others who believes bombing the civilians.
I like Xilon's posts as much as any. I understand he is Italian and often expresses himself through video because he can be more accurate with that than with English....and he has some good taste in music. His videos are often far fetched, but I have to say I watch them lol

I'm not sure pointing out who is more humanist is appropriate on a board about a war simulation where simulated pilots are killed on a regular basis.

Splitter
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  #299  
Old 09-27-2010, 12:59 AM
WTE_Galway WTE_Galway is offline
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Another point to note is that there is no way in 2010 a USAF aircraft would be allowed to be called "Enola Gay" with modern political correctness.
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  #300  
Old 09-27-2010, 01:06 AM
AndyJWest AndyJWest is offline
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Originally Posted by WTE_Galway View Post
Another point to note is that there is no way in 2010 a USAF aircraft would be allowed to be called "Enola Gay" with modern political correctness.
Enola Don't Ask, Don't Tell?
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