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FM/DM threads Everything about FM/DM in CoD

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  #1  
Old 11-11-2012, 02:06 PM
LoBiSoMeM LoBiSoMeM is offline
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Default Spitfire service ceiling...

I saw a lot of whinning about the low service ceiling of aircraft in CloD, some sounds like old WWII fighter pilots. I just want to have fun, and "near" real life performance.

I read some sources about Spitfire absolut and service ceiling, MkI, Ia, and IIa. The range goes from 30.000ft to 35.000/36.000ft.

In FMB I can set airstart with about 32.000ft. Starting from the ground, I can reach easily like 31.000ft.

I don't test the 109s of BoB time, but they operate with service ceiling 10km, about 32.000ft in real life. In CloD we can achieve such altitude?
Well... I can reach 31.000ft without killing my engine. It's so bad the FM regards service ceiling?



I really don't understand...
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  #2  
Old 11-11-2012, 05:30 PM
*Buzzsaw* *Buzzsaw* is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoBiSoMeM View Post
I saw a lot of whinning about the low service ceiling of aircraft in CloD, some sounds like old WWII fighter pilots. I just want to have fun, and "near" real life performance.

I read some sources about Spitfire absolut and service ceiling, MkI, Ia, and IIa. The range goes from 30.000ft to 35.000/36.000ft.

In FMB I can set airstart with about 32.000ft. Starting from the ground, I can reach easily like 31.000ft.

I don't test the 109s of BoB time, but they operate with service ceiling 10km, about 32.000ft in real life. In CloD we can achieve such altitude?
Well... I can reach 31.000ft without killing my engine. It's so bad the FM regards service ceiling?



I really don't understand...
In WWII Military terminology there is 'Service Ceiling' and 'Maximum Ceiling'.

Service Ceiling is the altitude to which an aircraft can climb and be combat effective. In the WWII era, the RAF determined when an aircraft reaches an altitude where its climbrate is less than 300 feet per minute that it had reached its Service Ceiling.

Although the Spitfires can climb to quite high altitudes, they are fundamentally challenged to fight effectively over approx. 15,000 ft. 109's are much more effective, better speed and climb, over that altitude, up to approx. 20,000 ft, even though they actually have a lower Maximum Ceiling than the Spitfires, being unable to climb over much more than 25,500 ft. Over 20,000 and up to approx. 25,500, the 109's continue to be faster, but gradually fall behind in climbrate, but in any case, both types are climbing at a rate which would be defined by most of Air Forces of the time as being combat ineffective.

Overall the altitude modelling in the game is one of the worst remaining issues. The STORM OF WAR series cannot progress effectively into later war scenarios with this problem unaddressed.
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  #3  
Old 11-11-2012, 06:18 PM
trademe900 trademe900 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoBiSoMeM View Post
I saw a lot of whinning about the low service ceiling of aircraft in CloD, some sounds like old WWII fighter pilots. I just want to have fun, and "near" real life performance.

I read some sources about Spitfire absolut and service ceiling, MkI, Ia, and IIa. The range goes from 30.000ft to 35.000/36.000ft.

In FMB I can set airstart with about 32.000ft. Starting from the ground, I can reach easily like 31.000ft.

I don't test the 109s of BoB time, but they operate with service ceiling 10km, about 32.000ft in real life. In CloD we can achieve such altitude?
Well... I can reach 31.000ft without killing my engine. It's so bad the FM regards service ceiling?



I really don't understand...
Of course it's not that simple. Yes we can touch high altitudes, barely.

Have you tried to see how fast you can go at that height or timed how long it takes to climb there? Don't bother wasting your life, it takes an eternity to get up there. Climb rates in this game are WAY off, everything is too slow. They are only somewhat accurate up to 10,000 feet. Also, the Hurricane climbs faster than Spitfire at present ). Above 17,000 feet everything absolutely goes out the window.

I don't know why people think it's absolute service ceiling that matters so much, time to height is far more important. No one in their right state of mind is going to be trolling about at 35,000 feet anyway. It's time to height and climb rate at high altitudes that is what people are complaining about, after a certain point everything just drops up and you are standing on your tail to gain a few feet.

High altitude modelling will not be fixed until the release of the sequel. So we just have to make do with fighting at low altitude for now.

Last edited by trademe900; 11-11-2012 at 06:24 PM.
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  #4  
Old 11-11-2012, 09:53 PM
Al Schlageter Al Schlageter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw* View Post
In WWII Military terminology there is 'Service Ceiling' and 'Maximum Ceiling'.

Service Ceiling is the altitude to which an aircraft can climb and be combat effective. In the WWII era, the RAF determined when an aircraft reaches an altitude where its climbrate is less than 300 feet per minute that it had reached its Service Ceiling.
100f/m not 300f/m

@ trademe900

You expect the sequel to fix the high altitude modeling when the air fighting over Mother Russia was from low to medium heights?
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  #5  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:41 AM
LoBiSoMeM LoBiSoMeM is offline
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Sorry, but i think you are wrong.

The numbers you supose to be the combat ceiling (climb rate of 500ft/m??? It's correct???), as i read, are the service ceiling (military or civil) of the aircraft, like Al Schlageter said, maximum climb rate of 100ft/m. In CloD with the Spitfire Mk.IIa i can only reach the MAXIMUM ceiling about 31.000Ft. I can't climb higher.

I think you are suposing that over 30.000ft is the operational ceiling of these WWII fighters of BoB time. I don't think it's correct.

Wikipedia:

"Combat ceiling

Combat ceiling is the highest altitude at which an aircraft is expected to have a given (usually 500 feet per minute) climb.[citation needed]

Alternatively, combat ceiling is defined as the highest altitude at which an airplane can sustain altitude and airspeed during a horizontal maneuver with a given bank angle (usually 15-20°).[citation needed]"

I don't tested this situation in CloD and I don't know the real aircraft numbers about combat ceiling. Maybe it's around 28.000/30.000ft.

Last edited by LoBiSoMeM; 11-12-2012 at 12:42 PM.
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  #6  
Old 11-12-2012, 12:39 PM
LoBiSoMeM LoBiSoMeM is offline
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Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw* View Post
but in any case, both types are climbing at a rate which would be defined by most of Air Forces of the time as being combat ineffective.
Tested now. The CloD Spitfire MkIIa can achieve a sustained climb rate of 500ft/m until 29.000ft ceiling. It's defined as "combat effective" with the combat ceiling of 29.000ft, i believe.

Reading some data from real Spitfire performance published in internet, i believe that the combat ceiling of BoB Spitfires is around 30.000ft. I don't believe that CloD is so "off".

But i'm not an expert, just tested things in CloD and compare some sources with RL data and the altitude in CloD that Spitfires can climb 500ft/m. Well, we can fight below 29.000ft, i believe that's near the RL data.
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  #7  
Old 11-12-2012, 12:51 PM
LoBiSoMeM LoBiSoMeM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw* View Post
109's are much more effective, better speed and climb, over that altitude, up to approx. 20,000 ft, even though they actually have a lower Maximum Ceiling than the Spitfires, being unable to climb over much more than 25,500 ft.
If this data is correct, i assume that blue fighter pilots will have some serious trouble now...

But i believe that with this final patch the 109s can climb higher than that. You tested with this final patch? Until the final patch the maximum ceiling of all aircraft was much lower.
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  #8  
Old 11-13-2012, 08:21 AM
trademe900 trademe900 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoBiSoMeM View Post
Tested now. The CloD Spitfire MkIIa can achieve a sustained climb rate of 500ft/m until 29.000ft ceiling. It's defined as "combat effective" with the combat ceiling of 29.000ft, i believe.

Reading some data from real Spitfire performance published in internet, i believe that the combat ceiling of BoB Spitfires is around 30.000ft. I don't believe that CloD is so "off".

But i'm not an expert, just tested things in CloD and compare some sources with RL data and the altitude in CloD that Spitfires can climb 500ft/m. Well, we can fight below 29.000ft, i believe that's near the RL data.
Let me ask you this question, have you tried climbing from the floor to 30,000 feet? There is the answer; it is way off.
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  #9  
Old 11-13-2012, 01:14 PM
LoBiSoMeM LoBiSoMeM is offline
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Originally Posted by trademe900 View Post
Let me ask you this question, have you tried climbing from the floor to 30,000 feet? There is the answer; it is way off.
I don't tried, i do that.

And i compare the climb rates with some "real life data". It's not so "way off".

By the way, you tested anything? People here say that things are "broken", wrong", but based in what? Please, numbers, tests in CloD (with engine settings used), etc.

People just spread some info that things are "way off" and nothing to do the comparisons.

As I said up, Spit IIa can sustain a climb rate off 500ft/m until 29.000 celing, and i don'y see why things above 17.000 "goes out the window"... I can fight in such high.

Last edited by LoBiSoMeM; 11-13-2012 at 01:17 PM.
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  #10  
Old 11-13-2012, 07:16 PM
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Kwiatek Kwiatek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoBiSoMeM View Post
Tested now. The CloD Spitfire MkIIa can achieve a sustained climb rate of 500ft/m until 29.000ft ceiling. It's defined as "combat effective" with the combat ceiling of 29.000ft, i believe.

Reading some data from real Spitfire performance published in internet, i believe that the combat ceiling of BoB Spitfires is around 30.000ft. I don't believe that CloD is so "off".

But i'm not an expert, just tested things in CloD and compare some sources with RL data and the altitude in CloD that Spitfires can climb 500ft/m. Well, we can fight below 29.000ft, i believe that's near the RL data.
At 28 000 ft RL Spitfire MKII had 1230 ft/min climb rate and at 30 000 ft it had still 995 ft/min ( near 1000 ft/min). Co CLOD SPitfire MKII above 20 000 ft has at least 2 times worse climb rate then RL plane.



CLOD is way off regarding high alt performacne of all planes. It is the fact. Planes dont reach their historical service celling and above 20 000 ft they have seriously performacne drop which casue that above that height they are practically flightless planes. Not mention that 109 could climb only for ab. 7.5 km.

Last edited by Kwiatek; 11-13-2012 at 07:18 PM.
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