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Units, artifacts, spells and Pet Dragon Discussion, questions and solutions about units, artifacts, spells and Pet Dragon.

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  #1  
Old 11-16-2010, 10:15 PM
Metathron's Avatar
Metathron Metathron is offline
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Default Moro Dark or Undead set?

Planning to have some fun with black knights on impossible.

Moro gives +3 Attack and +1 morale to the undead
The undead set gives +1 speed and initiative to the undead.

The thing is, there are two artifacts in the set and Moro has no such slots wheras Paladin Amelie only has one.

So which would you choose - a new companion and the full set or stick with Moro?
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  #2  
Old 11-16-2010, 11:14 PM
BB Shockwave BB Shockwave is offline
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That's easy. Speed and Intiative are much more important, you can increase morale in other ways (Necromancer's plague, for example) and the Might skill that boosts undead attack/defense is a better substitute. Trust me, I have just finished The Legend with an all-undead army some months ago, that +1 speed makes a lot of difference for Black Knights and Ancient Vampires (in vampire form), turning them into quite fast skirmishers instead of slow tanks.
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  #3  
Old 11-16-2010, 11:24 PM
ckdamascus ckdamascus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metathron View Post
Planning to have some fun with black knights on impossible.

Moro gives +3 Attack and +1 morale to the undead
The undead set gives +1 speed and initiative to the undead.

The thing is, there are two artifacts in the set and Moro has no such slots wheras Paladin Amelie only has one.

So which would you choose - a new companion and the full set or stick with Moro?
A few things to consider.

You will easily get to Adrenaline Level 3, so that can compensate for the speed and initiative. Single stack will always get the +2 speed and +2 initiative.

The real key to damage is the -20% leadership requirement for Black Knights via Black Helmet of the Set of Darkness.

I would get Set of Darkness and the Staff of the Acolyte Necromancer (-15% leadership requirement).

You will get +2 morale to undead if you go with Set of Darkness and Moro.

If you throw in a Dagger of Judgment, that should give you QUITE a killer critical hit percentage thanks to the +2 morale. The higher the base critical you have, the more benefit morale gives you.

Amulet of Death doesn't seem all that great. +5 intellect... for a Paladin? Why do you need intellect for a support caster build? I suppose you might want to go for that Armageddon build?

That said, I suppose it depends on your priorities on how you plan to use these black knights.

Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot you didn't say "solo black knight" build. Hmmm. That said, I still highly advise going for more leadership, since EvilN is based on your raw numbers. So the higher the number of black knights you have due to lower leadership, the easiest it is to revive them.

Last edited by ckdamascus; 11-16-2010 at 11:27 PM.
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  #4  
Old 11-16-2010, 11:31 PM
BB Shockwave BB Shockwave is offline
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Intellect is usefull for a Paladin (I am using the ring that gives +5 an takes 20% gold after battle) - to boost spells like Armor of God, Healing, Resurrection, and most importantly, Phoenix. I found even the Adult Phoenix is incredibly usefull in tough battles.

Yeah, for single stack Adrenaline will be sufficient, but why would you do that? It's boring. If you play undead, go all the way! You'll learn to appreciate how cool some of their units are. Ancient Vampires and Bone dragons rule, Cursed Ghosts are excellent tanks... Skeleton Archers are not as powerfull as in the Legend (due to nerfed Dragon Arrows) but can still pack a punch in huge numbers. And I think Pirate Ghosts have possibilities too. But the best are the Necromancers, a truly versatile unit that raises fodder, incapacitates spellcasters, casts Plague on the whole battlefield (and yes, it works on Black Dragons too), and is very fast to boot - meaning it will most likely act before the enemy does. The only problem is that its attack hits your own troops too, but that's the undead way - you can resurrect them by life drain or Evlins.
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  #5  
Old 11-17-2010, 01:39 AM
ckdamascus ckdamascus is offline
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Originally Posted by BB Shockwave View Post
Intellect is usefull for a Paladin (I am using the ring that gives +5 an takes 20% gold after battle) - to boost spells like Armor of God, Healing, Resurrection, and most importantly, Phoenix. I found even the Adult Phoenix is incredibly usefull in tough battles.

Yeah, for single stack Adrenaline will be sufficient, but why would you do that? It's boring. If you play undead, go all the way! You'll learn to appreciate how cool some of their units are. Ancient Vampires and Bone dragons rule, Cursed Ghosts are excellent tanks... Skeleton Archers are not as powerfull as in the Legend (due to nerfed Dragon Arrows) but can still pack a punch in huge numbers. And I think Pirate Ghosts have possibilities too. But the best are the Necromancers, a truly versatile unit that raises fodder, incapacitates spellcasters, casts Plague on the whole battlefield (and yes, it works on Black Dragons too), and is very fast to boot - meaning it will most likely act before the enemy does. The only problem is that its attack hits your own troops too, but that's the undead way - you can resurrect them by life drain or Evlins.
Ancient Phoenix is nearly worthless in Impossible UNLESS you got Level 3 Summoning and like 30+ intellect. Ideally 40+.

Even with said intellect and skills, they are not THAT awesome. Now, in the hands of a mage, they are quite decent, but again, not that awesome. They usually start to fall short around Verona or so.

Resurrection as a spell is oddly enough, not that good either. You get FAR better bang for your buck if you merely get more Paladin Units + Resurrection Skill or Rune Mages.

Phantom Paladins especially with Inquisitor blade is FAR more efficient than any level Resurrection.

Phantom Rune Mage, similar story.

Once again, leadership trumps here. Phantom with Level 3 Summoning is really key.

You are better off maxing summoning rather than getting + intellect skills.

As for healing, no need if you got paladins and rune mages. The marginal difference in +5 intellect isn't usually worth it.

I'll check the formulas and repost here.

Healing only gives you 5% more per intellect.
250 * 0.25 = 63 more HP with Healing.

Divine Armor only gives you Int/3 % more. So 5 more Intellect gives you a mere 1.67% more defense.

Resurrection is
600 * 0.25 = 150 more HP. Not even a single paladin more.

Last edited by ckdamascus; 11-17-2010 at 02:55 AM.
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  #6  
Old 11-18-2010, 10:31 AM
atlatea atlatea is offline
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Yeah, i agree phoenix is worthless. Even with 65 int mage, ancient phoenix barely survive verona fight againts lv 25 ish hero.

As for int, i agree that int is useless for paladin, yup, leadership is the best way.

Leadership + summoning 3 + phantom paladin/rune mage/inquisitor is much better alternative for resurecting than a lv 3 resurection with the maximum possible int a paladin can accumulate. Though there is a rare case in which resurection is better.

Summoning 3 basically increase 50% the number of your unit summoned by phantom, a no brainer choice if you go for phantoming.

I don't do the exact math, buf from seeing the fact itself, lv 3 phantom that has 45% effect will become 67%, 22% more, that's insanely a lot more (exactly 50% more unit, this means 50% more to the power of its resurection ).

@ck
i think he did mention only black knights, so it's solo black knight.

As for black knight, i agree that you don't really need darkness set, and as a paladin you can't wear it due to lack of artifact slot.

As for initiative and speed, many other things can help (spells and items). Same with critical. Paladin class has prayer which increase critical by 10%, indeed it's half of the +2 morale from darkness set, but still better than nothing.

Last edited by atlatea; 11-18-2010 at 10:34 AM.
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  #7  
Old 11-18-2010, 12:36 PM
ckdamascus ckdamascus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atlatea View Post
Yeah, i agree phoenix is worthless. Even with 65 int mage, ancient phoenix barely survive verona fight againts lv 25 ish hero.

As for int, i agree that int is useless for paladin, yup, leadership is the best way.

Leadership + summoning 3 + phantom paladin/rune mage/inquisitor is much better alternative for resurecting than a lv 3 resurection with the maximum possible int a paladin can accumulate. Though there is a rare case in which resurection is better.

Summoning 3 basically increase 50% the number of your unit summoned by phantom, a no brainer choice if you go for phantoming.

I don't do the exact math, buf from seeing the fact itself, lv 3 phantom that has 45% effect will become 67%, 22% more, that's insanely a lot more (exactly 50% more unit, this means 50% more to the power of its resurection ).

@ck
i think he did mention only black knights, so it's solo black knight.

As for black knight, i agree that you don't really need darkness set, and as a paladin you can't wear it due to lack of artifact slot.

As for initiative and speed, many other things can help (spells and items). Same with critical. Paladin class has prayer which increase critical by 10%, indeed it's half of the +2 morale from darkness set, but still better than nothing.
True. For the other mage players though, I must say, Ancient Phoenix is still useful for the Mage with high int. I don't use Ancient Phoenix to survive per se... I use it to do about 2-3K dmg per hit against 3 enemies, tank, resurrect if he lives long enough, tank again, and possibly hit another 3 enemies again. I don't think many spells let me do that much damage AND tank at least one or two hits AND triple burning effect for 35 mana.

Best part is, he can be cast anytime to interrupt the sequence of turns, since it has a fairly fast initiative, it will almost always go after whichever unit you are using.

But yes, even with high int, he basically will die in 2 rounds, revive, to maybe survive, but usually die again. Just a pretty nice way to do 6K (12K if he is positioned for a good retaliation) dmg + tank for only 35 mana!

Basically, intellect is a really worthless stat UNLESS you can REALLY REALLY jack it up. Even then, it is only marginally useful. Yes, I'm dissing on the Mage class.

Compare all these goodies to the poor stepchild Dragon of Chaos.... makes you wonder what the heck those developers were thinking. They clearly don't play on Impossible mode often.

Of course, this all only applies in Impossible Mode.

Morale complements the Paladin Prayer skill (which is probably one of the only skills I will always max haha), so it is a little harder to compare directly. e.g. the Prayer skill works in conjunction with Morale.

In short, Prayer skill with Morale +2 makes Prayer skill have a +3% bonus on top of the 10% base skill. Nevermind the fact that every unit has a raw unit base critical, so that makes morale even nicer.

If you have a lot of high BASE critical, the morale bonus trumps the paladin prayer bonus, however, the prayer paladin bonus applies to the BASE critical, so that isn't a fair statement for me to say!

Critical
15% raw unit base
10% prayer
20% dagger of judgment

45% total base critical +2 morale (30% bonus to criticals) should give +30% so
45*0.3 = 13.5% bonus to critical due to morale.

The Black Knights is one of the only units (if not only) that raises his raw unit base critical as he attacks (Rising Anger skill).

So if his rising anger forces his critical to go up 3%... it is really going up 3%*1.3 = 3.9% or 4% IF he has +2 morale bonus.

In short, if you have a very high base critical with powerful items like Axe of Lightning, Dagger of Judgment, Prayer Skill, Berserker Axe (30% for those Goblins woohoo!), raising morale increases your critical rate by QUITE a bit.

Sometimes, up to +30% more, achieving 100% critical!

The only drawback is morale can be reduced by negative status effects.

As an aside, this is what makes Orc units so nifty. The unit achieves max morale after a kill. So, if your Orc unit has a fairly high base critical to begin with, it is fairly easy to achieve 100% criticals. Makes you want to love those Catapults (which gain +30% base critical when adrenaline rises).
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  #8  
Old 11-18-2010, 07:18 PM
atlatea atlatea is offline
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I never use phoenix that much as mage, usually i don't waste my turn to summon it, even in this new system.

Yeah i agree morale bonus is better, still that 10% bonus from prayer seems to make significant difference if you're using BK, considering its special abilities.
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  #9  
Old 11-20-2010, 11:16 PM
BB Shockwave BB Shockwave is offline
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Umm, you seem to be forgetting that Leadership is gained due to levelling, items (mostly Regalia), banners and 1 skill... while Intellect can be gained with many skills, items, etc. So it's not like I can "go for leadership". It's much harder to increase then Intellect.

I am not playing Impossible, only Hard. It's challenging enough for a no-loss game.

Resurrection skill plus Magic Light increases the effect of the spell Resurrection, so if you are not using Paladins - I am now, because I am going with a Human army, but won't do in my next walkthrough - it is the way to go.

Btw, funny question... I have never heard/seen of anyone using the Paladin's prayer as an attack skill. It is supposed to damage Demons and Undead. I suppose, since the Paladin's Resurrection boosts Prayer, this could be an usefull weapon, just teleport your Paladin into the fray and "pray"...
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Old 11-21-2010, 12:04 PM
ckdamascus ckdamascus is offline
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Originally Posted by BB Shockwave View Post
Umm, you seem to be forgetting that Leadership is gained due to levelling, items (mostly Regalia), banners and 1 skill... while Intellect can be gained with many skills, items, etc. So it's not like I can "go for leadership". It's much harder to increase then Intellect.

I am not playing Impossible, only Hard. It's challenging enough for a no-loss game.

Resurrection skill plus Magic Light increases the effect of the spell Resurrection, so if you are not using Paladins - I am now, because I am going with a Human army, but won't do in my next walkthrough - it is the way to go.

Btw, funny question... I have never heard/seen of anyone using the Paladin's prayer as an attack skill. It is supposed to damage Demons and Undead. I suppose, since the Paladin's Resurrection boosts Prayer, this could be an usefull weapon, just teleport your Paladin into the fray and "pray"...
Well, you appear to have different, albeit extremely inefficient requirements. So I suppose the Paladin idea is moot. However, just to point out a few things.

You can always INCREASE effective leadership with Paladin units because the Inquisitor's sword ALWAYS spawns.

You can also increase effective leadership via Phantom by increasing the Summoner Skill, which again, does NOT really benefit from Int proportionally. Phantom raises up the % by Int/3. That's horribly inefficient. Better off raising Summoning to level 3 than waste ANY points on raising/buffing Intellect for the sake of Phantom.

Intellect is one of the worst stats in the entire game because it takes so much of it to be useful in IMPOSSIBLE games. Not to mention, damaging spells tend to be not nearly so good in Impossible games since the enemy is overwhelmingly strong compared to you.

That said, I usually ended up going support mode even with a Mage because there simply wasn't any point. An extra 500-1000 damage is worthless.

Clearly if atlatea and I play and beat Impossible games EASILY without any losses, don't you think our advice is easily applicable to lower difficulty levels?

However, you don't plan to use Paladins... and probably dont' plan to use inquisitors or rune mages either. I highly advise rune mages if you plan to do the demon build. Funny how the archdemons ranked nearly one of the best tank units on loreangelicus' spreadsheet.

The problem with Intellect, especially for Resurrection, is that it does not gain a bonus for every 7 intellect like most of the damage spells.

So, Resurrecting based on Intellect is purely linear, and at a pathetically slow rate too. Incidentally leadership can turn the tables big time depending on which part of the game you are, and they are key against all bosses.

Magic Light the Magic Tree Skill is only "really" good at level 1, since each consecutive increase only provides an additional 5% for 4 mind and 5 magic runes as opposed to a nice 15% boost at level 1.

Resurrection Paladin Mind Tree Skill raises the ability by 10% at first, but keeps giving 10% per upgrade, but costs 12, 14, 16 mind runes per level.

I would go with Rune Mages, and don't bother with Magic Light past level 1 unless you really got spare goods.

You probably want rune mages at a minimum as they tend to have similar revival capabiliites as the Paladin but no Area of Effect. However, Rune mages lets your revive level 5s, and lets you revive from a range, as opposed to walking the units to the paladin. Of course, this is with 20 spare mind runes for the rune mage.

If you just do the math, you'd see the difference though.

Anyways, back to your leadership vs intellect.

Metamorphic Axel can do 2000 leadership or +4 intellect. Which one is better for reviving?

2000 leadership means 9 more paladins.

9 paladins means 9*24 = 218 HP healed.

Level 3 Resurrection (mind you, you already wasted magic crystals to get this spell), 600 HP base, so you need 36% boost to heal 218 HP.

36% boost is 7-8 Intellect, OR Level 3 in Mind Tree Resurrection + 2 intellect. Or Level 3 in Magic Light + 11 intellect points.

Throw in Inquistor sword and Metamorphic axel, and the gap is even bigger, requiring 45% boost in magic (9 intellect) to compare.

So, I can get one Metamorphic Axel OR I can
Waste 46 mind runes, 2 slots for +7/+8 intellect and 28 magic crystals.
Or 12 mind runes, 15 magic runes, 3 slots for +11 intellect and 28 magic crystals.

Or you can replace the loss of slots for consuming more magic runes for the Magic Tree. Considering all I had to do was get one Metamorphic Axel...

Or heck, just throw in the Elven Crown, or Marshal's Baton... the idea is that leadership is FAR FAR FAR FAR more efficient in this regard.

If you are using units to revive, leadership is usually more important. -X% to leadership items are very very very good.

Of course, if you are playing on hard as opposed to impossible, who knows. Maybe all of this is moot since it should be easy enough to use any other strategy to win. I've never played Hard mode.
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