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IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover Latest instalment in the acclaimed IL-2 Sturmovik series from award-winning developer 1C: Maddox Games.

View Poll Results: Steam poll
Yes I have and like using Steam 256 54.47%
Yes I have and dont like using Steam 67 14.26%
No I do not have Steam but will for CoD 52 11.06%
No I do not have Steam and will not for CoD 95 20.21%
Voters: 470. You may not vote on this poll

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  #131  
Old 03-09-2011, 07:57 PM
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Extreme_One Extreme_One is offline
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Originally Posted by ElAurens View Post
I have been doing homework on Steam since this mess started.

Been asking folks I know personally that are involved in I.T. gaming, computer repair, and related businesses.

It's the only way to find clear, calm, and reasoned answers to my questions and concerns, as certainly none of the fan boys on either side that are constantly posting on the three main forums are capable of adult discussion.

So far I am pretty much hearing the same thing from all of them.

1. Never install Steam on a computer that is used for financial information work/storage that is not encrypted. QuickBooks came up a lot in this area.

2. Do not install Steam on any computer that you use to store any important personal information of any kind. Financial records, business transaction records, credit card transaction records, etc... or anything that is of deep personal value to you.

3. As a gaming resource it isn't a bad thing in and of itself. But, like any open port to the greater net, it can be used in a nefarious manner.

4. It is not a huge resouce hog, but it does "phone home" and there is additional network traffic because of it.

5. Never make direct credit card purchases for games on Steam. Buy Steam points at a brick and mortar store and use those online.

6. Be careful and it is not going to bite you.


OK.

That's where I'm at for now.
I'm curious about what your sources think will happen if you run Steam and do any of the above?

Do they believe Steam to be able to somehow intercept your personal data?

Steam is run by a multi-million dollar company not some fly-by-night scamming outfit looking to empty your bank account (unless you purchase so many games as to empty your bank account).

Do they believe that buying games directly through Steam is somehow any less secure that buying through any other Web Portal?

I have paid for games directly through Steam with Paypal, Click-And-Buy and credit/debit cards and have never experienced anything untoward.

I'd be more wary of buying from eBay than Steam.

Oh and the bandwidth thing ... it doesn't consume bandwidth when you need it, ie when you're playing a game. It will not update a game when you are currently playing one.
It does consume bandwidth when it updates your games (automatically or when you choose if you disable automatic updates) and when it updates itself (as long as you're not currently in a game)

Look I don't want to start an argument, I have no vested interest in protecting Steam's reputation but I have been using it for several years on two different PCs and no bad has ever come of it.

I just feel it's reasonable to point out that I have experienced no negatives, only positives.

Oh and most of the "computer repair professionals" and corporate IT admins I have ever met know far less about PCs than any PC gamer / hardware enthusiast worth their salt.
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  #132  
Old 03-09-2011, 08:09 PM
Biggs Biggs is offline
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if nothing else this at least shows how many people (registered on this forum) are planning on buying the game...

208 and counting
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  #133  
Old 03-09-2011, 09:22 PM
Les Les is offline
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For those who were asking or wanted to know, yes you will have to install Steam, and activate via Steam, even a retail, store-bought, DVD copy of IL2:Cliffs Of Dover, as we've been told specifically by an Ubisoft representative you will need a Steam account in order to play, even off-line.

This would have been more clear earlier, if it wasn't for the fact that the game will use SolidShield(Tages) DRM validation as well, which theoretically meant, if you never intended to play online, you could have just unlocked your game by submitting a code through the SolidShield system. That's neither here nor there now though, what's done is done. It's up to the publishers to decide what sort of DRM measures and multi-player features they want to implement, and it's up to the customers to decide now whether they can live with having the Steam client installed on their system.

I went through this decision-making process myself several years ago when I went out of my way to buy the retail disk version of Red Orchestra to avoid having to use Steam, only to find (due to lack of research) that even the retail disk version required activation through Steam. At that point, despite being annoyed at the lack of choices available, I decided to bite the bullet, install Steam and see what happened.

And what happened? Not much, just spent way too many hours playing a @#%^ing excellent game online, until the community faded and I got too pissed off too often by niggling annoyances that are just part and parcel of playing that kind of game online, and uninstalled it.

Steam stayed installed though, as I began taking advantage of it's special offers on other games that it's sales made affordable to buy, download, play through and discard (or keep installed as simple time-wasters). That was about five years ago now.

I'm not the kind of person who just installs programs willy-nilly, I like to keep a fairly lean-running machine, and there is other stuff I could have installed that I've chosen not to because I haven't been able to keep track of where it is and what it's doing. Steam isn't one of them. For me, it's pro's have outweighed it con's.

Something else I've come to realize is, if I'd never played the original IL-2 series, manually downloading and installing and patching it and flying online through Hyperlobby etc. If I'd never done all that, and saw it for anew today, and it was a Steam download only title, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it.

But, conversely, at least part of my resentment over the involvement of Steam in the new series is a nostalgia thing for the fun I've had over the years running the original IL-2 series the old-fashioned way. It's something I've grown attached to, there's history there, personal and shared, and if something's going to mess with the continuation of that, it had better be bringing with it some real benefits, or be keeping itself the hell out of the way as much as possible.

Also, Steam, with it's convenience and mass-appeal, is at the same time, for me, associated with cheapness and disposability and crass commerciality. And these aren't characteristics I readily associate with something like the IL-2 series. Yes, IL-2 is just a 'product', but it's also, essentially, a labour of love and something that I believe deserves, and has been given, more respect and dedicated attention than what it's going to get when it's inexorably linked up with Steam.

It may not mean much to anyone else, but as I look at it, there is also an aspect to all of this that is like the ending of an era, which is making moving on into different areas harder than it might otherwise be. The original Il-2 series managed to stand, and continues to stand, on it's own, even within the flight-sim genre, and it deserves to.

But the new series that's just beginning, is being born into a different world. And not an easier world for it's kind of thing. And quite frankly, f*#% anyone who abandons it now. It's like the child of the father you fought side by side with for years, through all those battles, all those victories and losses, look after it and give it a chance to grow into something that can make it's own place in a world more hostile towards and dismissive of it's kind's existence than ever before.

In this context, Steam is nothing. At worst, a mere hindrance , an extra button to push or background process running, nothing compared to what getting over it can facilitate and allow to keep growing.

Those of you who are abandoning the new IL-2 series are effectively abandoning the future of combat-flight-simming and leaving it to the wolves. It will only be a self-fulfilling prophesy if all that you feared about it's being compromised, or it's outright demise, comes true.

There's also absolutely no chance for the development of any work-arounds to the 'issues' some people are currently having if so many people bugger off now it has a negative impact on what Oleg and company can afford to do in the future.

Anyway, I've spent so long writing all this I've had time to remember how unimportant the whole subject is in the wider scheme of things, and what a strange form of entertainment this is.

Que sera sera.

Last edited by Les; 03-09-2011 at 09:59 PM.
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  #134  
Old 03-10-2011, 02:06 AM
JG27+Freid JG27+Freid is offline
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Originally Posted by TheGrunch View Post
By God, you're right! I also heard that you shouldn't trust foreigners. Thanks for the good info!
How mature of you !
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  #135  
Old 03-10-2011, 02:09 AM
JG27+Freid JG27+Freid is offline
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Originally Posted by Luftrofl View Post
Do a little more research because you obviously have no clue what went down between Ubi and Steam regarding the DRM.
Really, I am glad a young fellow like you is so worldly, i would have never thought about doing that son ! No need to disrespect people with such condesending comments.
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  #136  
Old 03-10-2011, 02:24 AM
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TheGrunch TheGrunch is offline
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Originally Posted by JG27+Freid View Post
How mature of you !
Well, I tend to reply to statements in kind. If you start insulting and generalising about large groups of people then I'm not interested in discussing anything with you reasonably, you're clearly just an idiot. To call the Steam user base as a whole arcade users and to use some kind of "watering down the pure blood" analogy is just childish in this day and age.
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  #137  
Old 03-10-2011, 02:29 AM
Panp Panp is offline
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Originally Posted by Kikuchiyo View Post
This sounds a lot like the arguments I have with my kids about trying new foods.

Kid:"It looks yucky I want chicken nuggets"
Me:"Have you tried it?"
Kid:"NO, cuz I won't like it"
Me:"How can you know you won't like it if you don't try it. Now take a bight."
Kid:*nibbles at food, five minutes later the plate is cleared.
Me:"How was it?"
Kid:"Very yummy!"
He he thats funny

Now go show your kid how that chicken nugget was made and lets see if she will eat it again.

It's funny how things that are kept out of sight change it's appeal.

like Steam at the last minute before release

I want the ability to go to a server that is of my choosing.
If you notice the key words here My Choice
Not Steams choice

If you like steam GREAT FOR YOU! thats your choice and Im ok with that, but I want the option to choose where and how and with whom along with When I play online and not be dependent on third party software that was forced on me to do so!!!

Give us the option to use the software in a online manner that we choose.

I have payed full price on every IL2 series CD that Oleg and 1C have put out during the last 9 / 10 years
I have bought and given away at least 10 cds of the IL 2 series to friends and family over the years.
Sad to say that I will not do this for COD, due to the forced use of steam on the online community.
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  #138  
Old 03-10-2011, 02:35 AM
Kikuchiyo Kikuchiyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JG27+Freid View Post
Really, I am glad a young fellow like you is so worldly, i would have never thought about doing that son ! No need to disrespect people with such condesending comments.
He's right you know. You're information or your interpretation of what went down there was flawed.

Valve listens to the gamer community, and pays attention to the market. Ubisoft created a draconian always connected DRM that all your game data and saves were attached to. Gamers cried foul and rightfully so. Valve being a developer of games by gamers for gamers saw that this would be bad for everyone, and could potentially ruin PC gaming as a platform, AND alienate PC gamers as a whole. They made a decision to boycott Ubisoft on their platform not for personal gain, but because they felt what Ubisoft was doing was unethical.

In the light of lost profits, being boycotted from the largest market for PC gaming, and the public outcry Ubisoft made the decision to scrap the draconian DRM. It wasn't as you suggested a bullying tactic by Valve, but a protest against Ubisoft's attempt to bully PC gamers. The amount of chaos that their always connected DRM caused in it's short existence was astounding though. People lost the ability to play their game(s) because the lost connection mid-game, all the saves related to it, and in some cases even the right to play the game(s) ever again. Oh and don't forget it did actually spy and track the connections to the internet that the gamer's PC had. If you had a torrent going (even one that like YuPlay that can in no way be attached to piracy) they would revoke your license to play the game, and wouldn't return it even if you provided hard evidence that it was a legal legitimate torrent.

Personally I was glad that a relatively small business stood up to a much larger business and won. It was a David and Goliath moment, and David triumphed.

Last edited by Kikuchiyo; 03-10-2011 at 02:38 AM.
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  #139  
Old 03-10-2011, 02:41 AM
Kikuchiyo Kikuchiyo is offline
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Originally Posted by Panp View Post

I want the ability to go to a server that is of my choosing.
If you notice the key words here My Choice
Not Steams choice

Uh the Steam platform doesn't tell you what server you have to use. It simply shows what servers are up and running the game you want to play. It will also tell you who is playing on them. If you don't like any of the available servers you can make your own, and through Steam invite who you want to be there, and even lock out people you don't want to be there.

I think you missed the whole point of what I was saying with that me vs kids exchange anyway.
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  #140  
Old 03-10-2011, 03:16 AM
Luftrofl Luftrofl is offline
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Originally Posted by JG27+Freid View Post
Really, I am glad a young fellow like you is so worldly, i would have never thought about doing that son ! No need to disrespect people with such condesending comments.
People who purposefully distort the facts to to make it fit their argument deserve no respect. You made it sound like Steam was the big bad guy bullying Ubisoft around at the expense of PC gamers, which was not the case. Go lie elsewhere.
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