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  #21  
Old 08-12-2012, 06:20 AM
Pursuivant Pursuivant is offline
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Originally Posted by FC99 View Post
I never fought Spits with P-47 in game but I fought many Spits with FW and what happened in the Johnson's story is absolutely possible to do in game if Spit pilot is not very good. And for all we know Spit pilot from the story could be an ATA ferry pilot pitted against one of the best American pilots.
That's why I'm inherently skeptical of anecdotal evidence of flight performance. They are typically used to "prove" that a particular plane could do [some amazing feat] when in the hands of God's Own Pilot, ignoring the other factors, such as the quality of the other pilot, the tactical situation, fuel states, mission and overall air superiority.

Much more useful is test pilot reports and performance analysis. Even then, you want a lot of data.

In fairness to the IL2 AI, I did the same auto-pilot P-47D-10 vs. Spitfire Mk IXc test I ran earlier, but with Ace P-47 and Rookie Spitfire. Not surprisingly, it usually plays out exactly as Johnson described it.

Assuming that the Spitfire survives the head-on pass, the engagement generally goes like this: 1) Spitfire burns off too much E in turns trying to follow the P-47's zoom climb or dive in the first pass. 2) Once the spit loses enough E, P-47 uses marginally better top speed and superior dive or zoom climb to extend. 3) P-47 extends, zoom climbs, turns into the opponent, and rolls and climbs as the Spitfire comes in for another head-on pass, getting a ~45 degree deflection shot on the Spitfire's forward quarter. Spit takes mortal damage to its engine or gets shot up badly enough that it loses its speed/ maneuverability advantage. 4) P-47 finishes off the Spit at its leisure.

Last edited by Pursuivant; 08-12-2012 at 06:38 AM.
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  #22  
Old 08-12-2012, 02:46 PM
RegRag1977 RegRag1977 is offline
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Originally Posted by FC99 View Post
C'mon, he is starting the story with this:

C'mon, he is starting the story with this:

Quote:
The following episode, found in Thunderbolt! by the World War II
USAAF ace Robert S. Johnson, is one of the best examples available of the
use of energy tactics (diving extension/pitch-back) to defeat a double superior opponent.
Exactly, but please read until the end: how to "use energy tactics (diving extension/pitch back) to DEFEAT a double superior opponenent". Key words are "defeat" and "double superior" opponent. Note he did not say how to defeat a noob pilot, which anyway would be completely pointless. Note also that the purpose of Shaw book is not about collecting impression: it is rather a scientific corpus of methods and techniques.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FC99 View Post

P47 is just marginally faster, not enough to have any decisive zoom advantage. Dive advantage is more pronounced but dives are not increasing your E,in most of the cases.
Correct when it comes to level flight, but not in a dive : fact presented here is that the Spitfire cannot match the P47 initial dive acceleration let alone top diving speed.
Remember here what Johnson states in the quote:

"But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom".

So apparently it was a known technique to use dive to gain energy advantage with the P47, as Shaw also say :

"Johnson, undoubtedly one of the greatest natural fighter pilots of all time, used his roll performance defensively to allow himself the chance to build an energy advantage in a diving extension".

It seems to me that Shaw understands that it is common to increase energy in a diving extension, at least to the point of having 'energy advantage". But, of course, that is only my interpretation, and you're entitled to yours.

You'll also notice how he states: "German fighter" and not the noob friendly and cooperating fighter. He is talking about actual combat experience, and this shows that the Spitfire pilot may not be as poor skilled as you may want us to believe. Johnson talk with actual combat experience, he would certainly not lose his time telling such a minor feat as beating a noob Spitfire pilot in a mock fight, when he has so many other victories to talk about. He tells us a story with actual combat in mind. Otherwise ask yourself why Shaw would have discuss this -according to you- poor example in his book? Come on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FC99 View Post

Spitfire pilot who burned all of his E in hard turns, allowed marginally faster opponent to build enough separation and speed to zoom above him. Sounds like the novice pilot to me . Whole this fight is actually an example how to lose less E than your opponent.There is a myriad of things Spit pilot could and should do to prevent the described outcome of the fight. As it seems that you have Shaw's book you can find some counter measures to E fight in the same chapter. With an ace Spit pilot that would never happen.
Well, please, let's see what happens in the described engagement, phase by phase:

First the Spit dives trying to follow the Thunderbolt diving, then only after being outmaneuvered trying to match the P47 in the zoom (this is the important part of the episode BTW) comes its first (and last) hard turn described as "skidding around hard and coming in on my tail". After that the Spitfire pilots is unable to follow rolls as Johnson "just refused to turn".Then the P47 enters the last dive of the mock combat followed by the fatal zoom climb.

Question to you: where are all the hard-ernergy-killer turns you are talking about? The Spitfire only turns hard once, so definitely not many hard turns here: anyway, if this only hard turn is enough to kill the Spitfire energy potential vs a P47, then there must be quite a performance problem in the game vs reality IMHO. But that's just a question.

As for counter measures, ha! there always a tactic against another tactic!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FC99 View Post

I never fought Spits with P-47 in game but I fought many Spits with FW and what happened in the Johnson's story is absolutely possible to do in game if Spit pilot is not very good. And for all we know Spit pilot from the story could be an ATA ferry pilot pitted against one of the best American pilots.
Fw190 is quite different from P47 in game and in reality, as you well know.
I also know well that one can shoot down an unexperience or a surprised pilot online, but still i would like to see a track of it (following more or less what Johnson describes in the account and especially the crucial part:

"He couldn't make it; the big Jug had a definite speed advantage. I grinned
happily; I'd heard so much about this airplane that I really wanted to show off
the Thunderbolt to her pilot. The Jug kept pulling away from the Spitfire;
suddenly I hauled back on the stick and lifted the nose. The Thunderbolt
zoomed upward, soaring into the cloud-flecked sky. I looked out and back;
the Spit was straining to match me, and barely able to hold his position.
But my advantage was only the zoom—once in steady climb, he had me. "

AND ESPECIALLY

"I gaped as smoke poured from the exhausts and the Spitfire shot past me as if
I were standing still. ").

And as for the ferry pilot, unlike you i don't know for sure, but i really doubt so -for reasons already mentionned in my above remarks. The maneuvers he performed that day were the same he used in actual combat against the Luftwaffe.

Last edited by RegRag1977; 08-12-2012 at 02:49 PM.
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  #23  
Old 08-12-2012, 03:14 PM
RegRag1977 RegRag1977 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
That's why I'm inherently skeptical of anecdotal evidence of flight performance. They are typically used to "prove" that a particular plane could do [some amazing feat] when in the hands of God's Own Pilot, ignoring the other factors, such as the quality of the other pilot, the tactical situation, fuel states, mission and overall air superiority.
Intersting Ai test.

I hear you about anecdotes...

However, here the anecdotal evidence is illustrating a general trend which applies to energy fighters, there's nothing like amazing feats here. Shaw's book is about physics and about techniques that work in actual combat: its a method.

("Robert L. Shaw holds a masters degree in aeronautical engineering and is a veteran of fourteen years in U.S. Navy fighter aviation. His assignments have included duty as a carrier-based fighter pilot, an operationnal test pilot, and test director for the Navy's Air Combat Maneuvering Range (ACMR)."

4000 hours in F4 and F14 fighter, the man knows what he's talking about here.
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  #24  
Old 08-13-2012, 08:24 AM
BlackBerry BlackBerry is offline
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RegRag1977, I agree with you. Shaw's P47C vs SpitfireIX story is to demonstrate combat tactic, the emphasis is "method" not " a rookie spitfire's pilot failure." My interpretation is below, notice that I care about their energy state all along the mock fighting.

Let P47C's energy(including both speed and altitude) is Ep.
Let Spitfire IX energy is Es.

1) At first, P47C and spitfireIX in formation. So, Ep=Es. Neither are full throttle.

Quote:
We flew together in formation, and then I decided to see just what this airplane had to its credit.

2) then P47C full throttle to a higher speed, sometime later, spitfire followed with full throttle. There is some distance between p47c and spit because p47 speed up earlier, and p47 has a somewhat higher speed due to higher Vmax. Whether the p47c dives slightly or not is not important because spit is chasing p47c at same altitude with a little lower speed.

Now, Ep>Es, only slightly difference. (20-30km/h slower?)

Quote:
I opened the throttle full and the Thunderbolt forged ahead. A moment later exhaust smoke poured from the Spit as the pilot came after me. He couldn't make it; the big Jug had a definite speed advantage.

3)
Quote:
The Jug kept pulling away from the Spitfire;
Ep>Es, 30-40km/h difference? what are their TAS now? perhaps 600km/h vs 570 km/h? You know it takes quite sometime to accelerate to Vmax in a level flight with full throttle.

4)

Quote:
suddenly I hauled back on the stick and lifted the nose. The Thunderbolt zoomed upward, soaring into the cloud-flecked sky. I looked out and back; the Spit was straining to match me, and barely able to hold his position.
Interesting is that Johnson begin to zoom from a medium speed(Below Vmax), and he found spitfire is in struggle to catch him. So we can say p47c outzoom spitfire: even spitfire could cut the conner, spit could not get closer to a zooming p47c.

At this stage, Ep>Es. still slightly advantage.


5) Turning point comes when both speed drops to sth. 300km/h? and below. Zoom period is finished. Continues low speed climb is here. Of course, spit9 outclimb p47c. Finnaly, spit9 fly ahead of and above of p47c and still keeping climb. Certainly, spitfire has opportunity of shooting at p47c at late period of zooming when distant is quite smaller.

Now p47c behind of and lower than spit, and spit begin to turn around in low speed, and try to ride on p47c's 6clock again.

This stage, spitfire pilot might grin happily. spit9 win! spitfireIX has both angle(before overshoot) and energy: Ep<Es. spitfire's somehow higher energy comes from its better climb rate(25 percent better power loading.)

6)
Quote:
This was going to be fun. I knew he could turn inside the heavy Thunderbolt;if I attempted to hold a tight turn the Spitfire would slip right inside me.I knew, also, that he could easily outclimb my fighter. I stayed out of those sucker traps. First rule in this kind of a fight: don't fight the way youropponent fights best. No sharp turns; don't climb; keep him at your own level.
Johnson is smart, no turn, no low speed climb with a spitfire, otherwise he'll lose.

The most important is that the spitfireIX has both angle and energy! and this is at low altitude, only 5000ft. spitfireIX is ready to get to firing position. This is a typical nightmare for those caught by a spitfire at low alt.

Quote:
We were at 5,000 feet, the Spitfire skidding around hard and coming in on my tail. No use turning; he'd whip right inside me as if I were a truck loaded with cement, and snap out in firing position.
Ep=Es, approximately.

7) P47c begin to barrel/scissors with better roll rate. But this could NOT establish energy advantage, just make spitfire not get into firing pisition.

Ep=Es, approximately. The distance between them is enlarging due to spitfire's lag in roll maneuver.
.
Quote:
Every time he tried to follow me in a roll, I flashed away to the opposite side, opening the gap between our two planes.

8 )Now big time comes, p47c begin to dive, this is the beginning of dive extend/pitch back tactic.

If spitfire follows, this will be the beginning of spitfire's failure regardless who is the pilot of spitfire. Even you are the best spitfire pilot in the world, if you dare to follow, you lose, your excellent skills could NOT avoid being out-energy by p47c.

Quote:
Then I played the trump. The Spitfire was clawing wildly through the air,trying to follow me in a roll, when I dropped the nose. The Thunderbolt howled and ran for earth.
Note that p47c begin to dive with roughly same energy with spitfireIX. Ep=Es.

Distant between them? Don't know. But it should be greater than the time before barrel/scissors.

9) The dive continues, speed higher and higher, p47c dive acceleration advantage show off. Even spitfireIX has same initial energy, p47c will establish energy advantage during dive. Of course, spitfire could not get closer to p47c, on the contrary, p47c is farer and farer away from spitfireIX.When they reach lowest point of the dive and begin level flight. P47c has more speed, same alt with spit.

So, Ep>>Es. and the distance is quite enough for the next maneuver----pitch back.
Quote:
when I dropped the nose. The Thunderbolt howled and ran for earth. Barely had the Spitfire started to follow—and I was a long way ahead of him by now

10) P47c begin to zoom. This is the second zoom. The first zoom earlier is from not-so-high speed, and p47c get caught by spit. This time is different because p47c zoom from HIGH SPEED after a dive. Spitfire could NOT get closer to p47c even spit could cut the corner, in such a high speed zoom. High Speed is p47c's "secret weapon".

Spitfire pilot probably wants to repeat the first zoom, catch p47c when both speed drops to low. But BEFORE that, p47c has already established energy advantage, and spitfire could never get close to p47c, leave alone "overshoot" p47c.

Ep>>>Es !

When p47c speed drops to low, at the same time, spitfire IX speed also drops to low. But P47c is quite higher than spitfire, and p47c's altitude is so high that p47c could turn back to spitIX. Amazing. With il2 FB experience we know that p47c should be 500m+ higher than spitfire, otherwise, p47c have no enough space to turn back and spitfire will shoot p47c down.

Quote:
when I jerked back on the stick and threw the Jug into a zoom climb. In a straight or turning climb, the British ship had theadvantage. But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. Before the Spit pilot knew what had happened, I was high above him, the Thunderbolt hammering around. And that was it—for in the next few moments the Spitfire flier was amazed to see a less maneuverable, slower-climbing Thunderbolt rushing straight at him, eight guns pointed ominously at his cockpit.


Thus we know Shaw's opinion, P47C establish sufficient energy advantage over spitfireIX by "dive extend/pitch back" tactic.

Why? Spitfire is bleeding energy during high speed straight flight---dive and zoom. Spitfire pilot not stupid, he will NOT tight turn while P47c fly straight. Both of them straight fly, but P47c bleeds spitfireIX's energy in straight flight. That's the key. If you are bleeding energy in straight flight, you could do nothing. ACE pilot=rookie pilot during this period. All you should do is to think about how to avoid shot down in the next few minutes by a higher energy opponent.

To reproduce in il2 FB, we need NOT barrel/scissor maneuver, just let p47c fly 400m ahead of spitfireIX, same speed, same altitude,ie 5000ft. Then p47c begin to dive extend (near deck) and pitch back, SpitfireIX FOLLOWS. We'll see how much energy advantage p47c establishes when finish the tactic.

In real combat, if spitfire don't follow, p47c just dive away and go home, that's small case.
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Last edited by BlackBerry; 08-13-2012 at 10:35 AM.
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  #25  
Old 08-13-2012, 10:00 AM
BlackBerry BlackBerry is offline
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Quote:
In fairness to the IL2 AI, I did the same auto-pilot P-47D-10 vs. Spitfire Mk IXc test I ran earlier, but with Ace P-47 and Rookie Spitfire. Not surprisingly, it usually plays out exactly as Johnson described it.

Assuming that the Spitfire survives the head-on pass, the engagement generally goes like this: 1) Spitfire burns off too much E in turns trying to follow the P-47's zoom climb or dive in the first pass. 2) Once the spit loses enough E, P-47 uses marginally better top speed and superior dive or zoom climb to extend. 3) P-47 extends, zoom climbs, turns into the opponent, and rolls and climbs as the Spitfire comes in for another head-on pass, getting a ~45 degree deflection shot on the Spitfire's forward quarter. Spit takes mortal damage to its engine or gets shot up badly enough that it loses its speed/ maneuverability advantage. 4) P-47 finishes off the Spit at its leisure.
No, your test with AI is not suitable for Johnson's story.

For Johnson, he begin to dive when s spitfireIX on his 6 o'clock, not head to head.

A)Bleeding a tight turning spitfireIX's energy is very easy. An experienced spit pilot will NOT let this happen. He also wanna bleed your energy.

B)Bleeding a straight flight spitfireIX's energy is your real task. If you accomplish this, you may beat a Spitfire ACE. This is the purpose of Shaw's text, he is NOT saying how to beat a rookie opponent, he is telling us how to implement your aircraft performance, how to beat a kind of aircraft. Follow his instruction, you will establish energy advantage regardless who is the opponent pilot. ACE or rookie? No difference. You don't need to care about it.

To reproduce in il2 FB, we need NOT barrel/scissor maneuver, just let p47c fly 400m ahead of spitfireIX, same speed, same altitude,ie 5000ft. Then p47c begin to dive extend (near deck) and pitch back, SpitfireIX FOLLOWS. After extend to deck, you begin to zoom, the zoom angle as you wish. We'll see how much energy advantage p47c/d10 establishes when finish the tactic(speed drops to 300km/h). Fly straight during the whole process, don't evade spit's bullet. Good luck.

Last edited by BlackBerry; 08-13-2012 at 10:32 AM.
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  #26  
Old 08-15-2012, 02:37 PM
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FC99 FC99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RegRag1977 View Post
Exactly, but please read until the end: how to "use energy tactics (diving extension/pitch back) to DEFEAT a double superior opponenent". Key words are "defeat" and "double superior" opponent. Note he did not say how to defeat a noob pilot, which anyway would be completely pointless. Note also that the purpose of Shaw book is not about collecting impression: it is rather a scientific corpus of methods and techniques.
Shaw's book is not intended for kindergarten kids, some comprehension ability and familiarity with BFM,ACM and physics in general are prerequisites for understanding the book. Reading it from the beginning helps too, especially if you read it all, not just a parts you like and conveniently forget everything that doesn't suit your agenda.

Quote:
Climbing extension/pitch-back tactics cannot be expected to work for
the inferior fighter in this scenario, since the opponent has a Ps advantage.
The other energy tactics discussed, which are intended to bleed the bogey's
energy with a nose-to-tail turn (or nose-to-nose in the case of a very small
bogey or one equipped with all-aspect missiles), can still be effective
against an inexperienced or a careless opponent
.
+
Quote:
The following episode, found in Thunderbolt! by the World War II
USAAF ace Robert S. Johnson, is one of the best examples available of the
use of energy tactics (diving extension/pitch-back) to defeat a doublesuperior
opponent.
You see, some energy tactics can be effective against inexperienced or careless opponent and one of the best examples is in Johnson's book.


Quote:
Correct when it comes to level flight, but not in a dive : fact presented here is that the Spitfire cannot match the P47 initial dive acceleration let alone top diving speed.
Spits were dived to higher Machs than P47 although this is not relevant for this story.

Quote:
Remember here what Johnson states in the quote:
"But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom".
And "can't come close to P47" means what exactly, how many meters is that? I'm sure that all of the F1 drivers will sya that HRT is cr@p in comparison to Ferrari but on a full lap difference is whooping couple hundred meters.

Quote:
So apparently it was a known technique to use dive to gain energy advantage with the P47, as Shaw also say :

"Johnson, undoubtedly one of the greatest natural fighter pilots of all time, used his roll performance defensively to allow himself the chance to build an energy advantage in a diving extension".
It is not guaranteed way of building the E over an opponent, it gives you E advantage only if your opponent is "cooperative" and decide to play your game. Spit can easily dive at shallower angle and keep altitude while holding the P-47 in check. As they started at ~1500m there is not much room for diving anyway.

If you want to build E in WWII environment than climb, climb, climb.

Quote:
It seems to me that Shaw understands that it is common to increase energy in a diving extension, at least to the point of having 'energy advantage". But, of course, that is only my interpretation, and you're entitled to yours.
Shaw understand air combat and physics principles,it is you who struggles. Basic physics will show you that you will not increase E in high speed dive with prop driven WWII plane under FTH. If you don't trust physics you can check dive tests and calculate E yourself. Shaw know this and he expect his readers to know that too.

Quote:
You'll also notice how he states: "German fighter" and not the noob friendly and cooperating fighter. He is talking about actual combat experience, and this shows that the Spitfire pilot may not be as poor skilled as you may want us to believe. Johnson talk with actual combat experience, he would certainly not lose his time telling such a minor feat as beating a noob Spitfire pilot in a mock fight, when he has so many other victories to talk about. He tells us a story with actual combat in mind.
This is a story from the guy who scored some kills, survived and wrote this book with M. Caidin IIRC. Book was meant to be sold and entertain not to tell dry facts. He also says that P-47 ca out-roll anything and this nowhere near the truth. It is just about beating famous plane, Spitfire, nothing more nothing less. If you want real controversy than examine the Johnson's story about being hammered by an FW.


Quote:
Otherwise ask yourself why Shaw would have discuss this -according to you- poor example in his book? Come on...
This is not poor example, this is excellent example how to improve your chances when you are at disadvantage and eventually beat your opponent.


Quote:
Well, please, let's see what happens in the described engagement, phase by phase:

First the Spit dives trying to follow the Thunderbolt diving, then only after being outmaneuvered trying to match the P47 in the zoom (this is the important part of the episode BTW) comes its first (and last) hard turn described as "skidding around hard and coming in on my tail". After that the Spitfire pilots is unable to follow rolls as Johnson "just refused to turn".Then the P47 enters the last dive of the mock combat followed by the fatal zoom climb.

Question to you: where are all the hard-ernergy-killer turns you are talking about? The Spitfire only turns hard once, so definitely not many hard turns here: anyway, if this only hard turn is enough to kill the Spitfire energy potential vs a P47, then there must be quite a performance problem in the game vs reality IMHO. But that's just a question.
This:
Quote:
With my speed, roll was my only
advantage, and I made full use of the manner in which the Thunderbolt could
whirl. I kicked the Jug into a wicked left roll, horizon spinning crazily, once,
twice, into a third. As he turned to the left to follow, I tramped down on the
right rudder
, banged the stick over to the right. Around and around we went,
left, right, left, right.
P-47 rolls and turns(Johnson never said that he didn't turn, just that he didn't turn hard and rolls without turns makes no sense because in that case plane would just fly straight rolling around longitudinal axis. With doing that P-47 would just lose E.) So mechanic of the fight is this:
P-47 rolls and turn gently
Spit follow the roll and turns inside
P-47 rolls to the other side and turns
Spit can't follow the roll so he is still turning left when P-47 is already turning right. When Spit has rolled and turning right Johnson repeats everything again but to the other side. With every roll and turn Johnson is putting Spit outside of his turn and that force Spit to turn harder every time to get inside of P-47 turn. This creates E difference and separation which enables Johnson to perform vertical move and beat the Spit.

Basic premises of E fight is denying the vertical moves to your opponent, now ask yourself, why Spit didn't pull into vertical and meet P-47 head-on, that would be a draw.
Quote:
Before the
Spit pilot knew what had happened, I was high above him, the Thunderbolt
hammering around.
Why he/her didn't do it, to slow to pull up or Spit pilot didn't even saw that Johnson pulled up after one of the reversal because it is very likely that after every reversal P-47 went under Spit nose thus making the visual contact impossible?


Quote:
And this killed his ability to turn inside me.
If Johnson was flying straight Spitfire turning ability is irrelevant, he is faster and has better dive, why he had to roll in the first place?



Quote:
As for counter measures, ha! there always a tactic against another tactic!
Don't know what is funny here, Spit pilot obviously didn't know how to counter Johnson's moves and that shows his/her lack of skill.


Quote:
Fw190 is quite different from P47 in game and in reality, as you well know.
I also know well that one can shoot down an unexperience or a surprised pilot online, but still i would like to see a track of it (following more or less what Johnson describes in the account and especially the crucial part:

"He couldn't make it; the big Jug had a definite speed advantage. I grinned
happily; I'd heard so much about this airplane that I really wanted to show off
the Thunderbolt to her pilot. The Jug kept pulling away from the Spitfire;
suddenly I hauled back on the stick and lifted the nose. The Thunderbolt
zoomed upward, soaring into the cloud-flecked sky. I looked out and back;
the Spit was straining to match me, and barely able to hold his position.
But my advantage was only the zoom—once in steady climb, he had me. "

AND ESPECIALLY

"I gaped as smoke poured from the exhausts and the Spitfire shot past me as if
I were standing still. ").
What is the problem here, P47 will be better in zoom part and Spit will catch it easily in sustained climb.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:05 PM
RegRag1977 RegRag1977 is offline
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Originally Posted by BlackBerry View Post
RegRag1977, I agree with you. Shaw's P47C vs SpitfireIX story is to demonstrate combat tactic, the emphasis is "method" not " a rookie spitfire's pilot failure." My interpretation is below, notice that I care about their energy state all along the mock fighting.

Let P47C's energy(including both speed and altitude) is Ep.
Let Spitfire IX energy is Es.

1) At first, P47C and spitfireIX in formation. So, Ep=Es. Neither are full throttle.




2) then P47C full throttle to a higher speed, sometime later, spitfire followed with full throttle. There is some distance between p47c and spit because p47 speed up earlier, and p47 has a somewhat higher speed due to higher Vmax. Whether the p47c dives slightly or not is not important because spit is chasing p47c at same altitude with a little lower speed.

Now, Ep>Es, only slightly difference. (20-30km/h slower?)




3)


Ep>Es, 30-40km/h difference? what are their TAS now? perhaps 600km/h vs 570 km/h? You know it takes quite sometime to accelerate to Vmax in a level flight with full throttle.

4)



Interesting is that Johnson begin to zoom from a medium speed(Below Vmax), and he found spitfire is in struggle to catch him. So we can say p47c outzoom spitfire: even spitfire could cut the conner, spit could not get closer to a zooming p47c.

At this stage, Ep>Es. still slightly advantage.


5) Turning point comes when both speed drops to sth. 300km/h? and below. Zoom period is finished. Continues low speed climb is here. Of course, spit9 outclimb p47c. Finnaly, spit9 fly ahead of and above of p47c and still keeping climb. Certainly, spitfire has opportunity of shooting at p47c at late period of zooming when distant is quite smaller.

Now p47c behind of and lower than spit, and spit begin to turn around in low speed, and try to ride on p47c's 6clock again.

This stage, spitfire pilot might grin happily. spit9 win! spitfireIX has both angle(before overshoot) and energy: Ep<Es. spitfire's somehow higher energy comes from its better climb rate(25 percent better power loading.)

6)


Johnson is smart, no turn, no low speed climb with a spitfire, otherwise he'll lose.

The most important is that the spitfireIX has both angle and energy! and this is at low altitude, only 5000ft. spitfireIX is ready to get to firing position. This is a typical nightmare for those caught by a spitfire at low alt.



Ep=Es, approximately.

7) P47c begin to barrel/scissors with better roll rate. But this could NOT establish energy advantage, just make spitfire not get into firing pisition.

Ep=Es, approximately. The distance between them is enlarging due to spitfire's lag in roll maneuver.
.


8 )Now big time comes, p47c begin to dive, this is the beginning of dive extend/pitch back tactic.

If spitfire follows, this will be the beginning of spitfire's failure regardless who is the pilot of spitfire. Even you are the best spitfire pilot in the world, if you dare to follow, you lose, your excellent skills could NOT avoid being out-energy by p47c.



Note that p47c begin to dive with roughly same energy with spitfireIX. Ep=Es.

Distant between them? Don't know. But it should be greater than the time before barrel/scissors.

9) The dive continues, speed higher and higher, p47c dive acceleration advantage show off. Even spitfireIX has same initial energy, p47c will establish energy advantage during dive. Of course, spitfire could not get closer to p47c, on the contrary, p47c is farer and farer away from spitfireIX.When they reach lowest point of the dive and begin level flight. P47c has more speed, same alt with spit.

So, Ep>>Es. and the distance is quite enough for the next maneuver----pitch back.



10) P47c begin to zoom. This is the second zoom. The first zoom earlier is from not-so-high speed, and p47c get caught by spit. This time is different because p47c zoom from HIGH SPEED after a dive. Spitfire could NOT get closer to p47c even spit could cut the corner, in such a high speed zoom. High Speed is p47c's "secret weapon".

Spitfire pilot probably wants to repeat the first zoom, catch p47c when both speed drops to low. But BEFORE that, p47c has already established energy advantage, and spitfire could never get close to p47c, leave alone "overshoot" p47c.

Ep>>>Es !

When p47c speed drops to low, at the same time, spitfire IX speed also drops to low. But P47c is quite higher than spitfire, and p47c's altitude is so high that p47c could turn back to spitIX. Amazing. With il2 FB experience we know that p47c should be 500m+ higher than spitfire, otherwise, p47c have no enough space to turn back and spitfire will shoot p47c down.





Thus we know Shaw's opinion, P47C establish sufficient energy advantage over spitfireIX by "dive extend/pitch back" tactic.

Why? Spitfire is bleeding energy during high speed straight flight---dive and zoom. Spitfire pilot not stupid, he will NOT tight turn while P47c fly straight. Both of them straight fly, but P47c bleeds spitfireIX's energy in straight flight. That's the key. If you are bleeding energy in straight flight, you could do nothing. ACE pilot=rookie pilot during this period. All you should do is to think about how to avoid shot down in the next few minutes by a higher energy opponent.

To reproduce in il2 FB, we need NOT barrel/scissor maneuver, just let p47c fly 400m ahead of spitfireIX, same speed, same altitude,ie 5000ft. Then p47c begin to dive extend (near deck) and pitch back, SpitfireIX FOLLOWS. We'll see how much energy advantage p47c establishes when finish the tactic.

In real combat, if spitfire don't follow, p47c just dive away and go home, that's small case.
TY BlackBerry,
Very precise description, we should have begin with this for better understanding of Johnson's account. This will be of great interest especially to people like Fatcat believing that the Spitfire pilot burnt all his energy in hard turns.
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  #28  
Old 08-16-2012, 01:03 AM
RegRag1977 RegRag1977 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FC99 View Post
Shaw's book is not intended for kindergarten kids, some comprehension ability and familiarity with BFM,ACM and physics in general are prerequisites for understanding the book. Reading it from the beginning helps too, especially if you read it all, not just a parts you like and conveniently forget everything that doesn't suit your agenda.
Yes, absolutely, it's all about physics. Interesting that you're speaking about Kindergarten and yet trying an ad hominem attack on me to make people think that i am wanting to change something in the game when i'm only taking part in a interesting discussion. I guess you don't find this childish. Anyway...

I was looking for more arguments, and no personal attacks...





Quote:
Originally Posted by FC99 View Post
Spits were dived to higher Machs than P47 although this is not relevant for this story.
We are talking WW2 environement and standard performance, right? So please give me any information that shows that P47C is inferior in top diving speed and has lower dive acceleration compared to Spitfire IX. Strangely Shaw seems on the contrary to believe that the P47 had: "faster top speed and greater dive acceleration"...

Are you trying to make your point against mine by comparing a standard WW2 design with a prototype? Would that be scientific or prove comprehension ability and familiarity with BFM,ACM and physics in general? Or agenda and other Kindergarten stuff?

You're right it is not relevant.

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Originally Posted by FC99 View Post
And "can't come close to P47" means what exactly, how many meters is that? I'm sure that all of the F1 drivers will sya that HRT is cr@p in comparison to Ferrari but on a full lap difference is whooping couple hundred meters.
It's just an experienced fighter pilot that tells it, not me. I guess it is just a statement like "no modern allied aircraft engaged in PTO could turn inside a A6M type"...It's a general statement that reflects some pilot experience, i guess.
Frankly, i don't understand your strange comparison with cars, i did not know cars and WW2 aircraft were so close in design that we could compare them, i leave you with that, and instead i ask you to think about what it does mean when successful fighter pilots tell you something like that: "no modern allied aircraft engaged in PTO could turn inside an A6M type", maybe it will help you to understand Johnson statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FC99 View Post
It is not guaranteed way of building the E over an opponent, it gives you E advantage only if your opponent is "cooperative" and decide to play your game. Spit can easily dive at shallower angle and keep altitude while holding the P-47 in check. As they started at ~1500m there is not much room for diving anyway.

If you want to build E in WWII environment than climb, climb, climb.
My point of view is that it is Johnson that was cooperative in the mock fight by letting it start with a Spitfire right on his six, but again that's just me. Denying the enemy to get to your six for free is another basic rule of air combat if memory serves me? Johnson here plays the Spitfire pilot's game by offering the Spitfire pilot the most desirable position to start a dogfight with , and this maybe tells things about how confident Johnson was about his high speed combat knowledge and about the potential of his aircraft...



Quote:
Originally Posted by FC99 View Post
This is a story from the guy who scored some kills, survived and wrote this book with M. Caidin IIRC. Book was meant to be sold and entertain not to tell dry facts. He also says that P-47 ca out-roll anything and this nowhere near the truth. It is just about beating famous plane, Spitfire, nothing more nothing less. If you want real controversy than examine the Johnson's story about being hammered by an FW.
Strange that an actual fighter pilot with a lot of experience (4000 hours) like Shaw and unlike you, found his account fair enough to use it in his scientific book, praising the man. But now if you yourself want to consider Johnson as a liar and poor poser pilot, that is your choice. As for the Fw190 encounter: i don't see the logical link between being defeated and nearly shot down by a Fw190 pilot and the ability of a fighter pilot to describe a dogfight with precision. Lots of experienced pilots were shot down, what's the problem with that?
haha It seems like that you cannot bear the idea of a famous Spitfire being shot down, and this is childish to me. It appears YOU have an agenda (with the Spitfire), not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FC99 View Post
This is not poor example, this is excellent example how to improve your chances when you are at disadvantage and eventually beat your opponent.
Yes i agree with you on this, but remember that the Spitfire pilot starts the engagement in an ideal position too. The mock fight doesn't start in a neutral position, and this is the most interesting fact in the whole account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FC99 View Post
This:

P-47 rolls and turns(Johnson never said that he didn't turn, just that he didn't turn hard and rolls without turns makes no sense because in that case plane would just fly straight rolling around longitudinal axis. With doing that P-47 would just lose E.) So mechanic of the fight is this:
P-47 rolls and turn gently
Spit follow the roll and turns inside
P-47 rolls to the other side and turns
Spit can't follow the roll so he is still turning left when P-47 is already turning right. When Spit has rolled and turning right Johnson repeats everything again but to the other side. With every roll and turn Johnson is putting Spit outside of his turn and that force Spit to turn harder every time to get inside of P-47 turn. This creates E difference and separation which enables Johnson to perform vertical move and beat the Spit.


Basic premises of E fight is denying the vertical moves to your opponent, now ask yourself, why Spit didn't pull into vertical and meet P-47 head-on, that would be a draw.

Why he/her didn't do it, to slow to pull up or Spit pilot didn't even saw that Johnson pulled up after one of the reversal because it is very likely that after every reversal P-47 went under Spit nose thus making the visual contact impossible?

Please read points 7 and 8 in BlackBerry's last post

remark on a small detail: Strange what you say about rolling around longitudinal axis and losing E: I always thought aileron rolling was considered E neutral....Maybe for some reasons it is not so for P47?



Quote:
Originally Posted by FC99 View Post
If Johnson was flying straight Spitfire turning ability is irrelevant, he is faster and has better dive, why he had to roll in the first place?
That is maybe because he generously gave his six at the beginning of the engagement? What do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FC99 View Post
Don't know what is funny here, Spit pilot obviously didn't know how to counter Johnson's moves and that shows his/her lack of skill.



What is the problem here, P47 will be better in zoom part and Spit will catch it easily in sustained climb.
Yet Johnson insists on the fact that the Spitfire cannot stay with the P47c in a zoom, and that he could use this to advantage not only versus a Spitfire but also against German opponenents.

Last edited by RegRag1977; 08-16-2012 at 01:09 AM.
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  #29  
Old 08-16-2012, 01:04 AM
JtD JtD is offline
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What power settings did the Spitfire use while following through the rolls and then the dive? What engine did it have?
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  #30  
Old 08-16-2012, 01:17 AM
RegRag1977 RegRag1977 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JtD View Post
What power settings did the Spitfire use while following through the rolls and then the dive? What engine did it have?
That is a very good question and i guess it applies also to the P47. Note that Johnson compares the Spitfire to its German counterparts. So i would guess, roughly similar performance than the German counterparts. But i could be wrong.
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