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  #31  
Old 06-13-2012, 09:07 PM
HenFre HenFre is offline
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@schilla22: The Flak unit described in the PDF has the Flak on Halftracks like this:

http://albumwar2.com/images/stories/...fz.%2010.4.jpg

So it is a motorised unit, which I suppose are used to support the panzerbattalions.

The unit that I have in my post is a towed Flak like this:

http://ww2db.com/images/weapon_flak38_16.jpg

But maybe the organisation of the 2 cm Flak batterie was changed in august of 1940, hence the new KSTN?? Could be that the change was in the number of platoons and the number of guns in each platoon.

Where have you found tons of KSTN? Same site as I am referring to?

Looking forward to seeing your diagrams and what you dig up

Last edited by HenFre; 06-14-2012 at 08:19 AM. Reason: Links to pictures
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  #32  
Old 06-14-2012, 08:01 AM
schilla22 schilla22 is offline
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Ok, after probably a solid 16+ hours of looking through the George Nafziger collection of Orders of Battle, via U.S. Army Combined Arms Research Library, I just now found a website that you can bulk download all of the PDFs.

http://www.alternatewars.com/CARL/Nafgizer_CARL.htm

And there's an index for German Authorized Strengths (Regiments, Battalions, Companies, Platoons etc), from 1941-1945, for a huge variety of unit types.

Here is an Index Page from a separate website:
http://home.fuse.net/nafziger/TOE.HTM

As you can see, there are also thousands of other files for other Countries, of which I have yet to even look through. (next on my list is Great Britain)

The Coding works as follows:
944GQAG
944 = Year of the Document, not always 100% accurate but close. This one representing 1944
G = Country of Origin. This one being Germany. Others like F = France, B = Britain etc.
QAG = Unknown, have yet to really decipher these.

This File 944GQAG specifically represents: German Army Authorized Strength - Staff, Horse Drawn 20mm Flak Battalion - 1 November 1944.

There are at least 2 files in the 938-940 years for Germany concerning Flak Authorized Strength. One of them is 940GXMG However I cannot recall the other one at this moment.


From what I can tell, up until 1944, all Flak Battalions were Motorized, unless if they were Garrison Units (fixed emplacements around strategic targets or cities) 943GQDR and 943GQDS. Of which it looks that these units have less # of Vehicles than the others. I assume that they would borrow vehicles, or get vehicles from other units to transport to new positions.

Also I think the key to Flak units, is that they needed to be highly mobile to protect Key Assets, like what HenFre said, Panzer divisions etc.

Its not until 1944 and after, that you start seeing TO&Es of Flak units that are only partially Motorized, or Horse drawn. Here I'll assume that for obvious reasons of production, and air superiority by the Allies made Motor Transport almost non existent.

When you get to looking into Divisions and their Attachment Units, you'll see either just 1 Battalion attached, or Single or Multiple Companies/Batteries (2,3,or 4 guns). So basically These units when it comes to size, and vehicles in those units can be totally random and based on Individual Unit TO&E's. There isn't much of a level of standardization.

I hope to work on some Diagrams similar to HenFre's this weekend, and if I learn how to actual Scripts. But at the moment I'm totally Brain Fried

Last edited by schilla22; 06-14-2012 at 08:14 AM.
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  #33  
Old 06-15-2012, 09:34 AM
HenFre HenFre is offline
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@schilla22: Thank you for the links schilla Lots of great information. Which units do you plan to make diagrams for? I will also be making some and it would be stupid to do the same ones

I think the main difference between my 2 cm Flak unit and the ones mentioned in your links is, that yours are for the army and mine is for the Luftwaffe. Can you confirm that your KSTN's (TO&E's) are for the army?
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  #34  
Old 06-15-2012, 11:26 AM
schilla22 schilla22 is offline
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@ HenFre Right now I'm shuffling through these files to come to a proper determination of when the Army started creating their own Flak units. It was always to my assumption that the Army didnt start doing this till around 1942 when they started meeting more opposition on the Western Front from the Russian Air Force. And when stronger production started on the actual Mechanized Flak units, aka mounted Half Tracks.

The project I'm working on at the moment is an actual Map (via workable area of France and Britain in CLOD) of stationed Flak units in France in 1940 and early 1941. There is one File (can't remember coded number at the moment) of giving specific locations of Battalions in France and Belgium. Then using some books to determine the British Defense.

Some of the KSTN's are for the Luftwaffe, but finding them is difficult. I will make a choice later today as of which units I will Choose. Probably choose an Army 1940 motorized divisions / battalion / company strength later today.
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  #35  
Old 06-15-2012, 11:33 AM
csThor csThor is offline
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Between Army and Luftwaffe flak units there's a considerable difference - also time-wise. The Army had own Flak units (almost exclusively motorized companies) as early as 1940 but none of them had anything larger than a 3,7cm Flak 18/36. Until 1942 only the Luftwaffe operated the 8,8cm Flak - only then the Army set up its own Flak battalions with the Achtacht (usually two platoons with 4 guns each and another two or three light/medium platoons).
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  #36  
Old 06-15-2012, 07:12 PM
schilla22 schilla22 is offline
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@csThor Do you have any information on those Army Flak units aka KSTN's / TO&E's?

@HenFre I've decided to start of with Motorized Infantry Divisions. But specifically with each individual section untill I reach the whole division strength. The Document I have covers 4 of the 8 Motorized Divisions in May 1940. I cannot remember the Code for the document, but its Title German Motorized Infantry Divisions - 10 May 1940.

@csThore and HenFre There are NO Flak Units listed in the May 1940 Document. There are 4 Divisions covered: 2nd, 13th, 20th, and 29th (mot) INF DIV. In document 941GHAI Title: Organization German 20th (mot) Infantry Division - 23 August 1941 You can find that there is 1 Flak Unit attached to the 20th (mot) Panzerjäger Battalion: 1st Btry/52nd Self Propelled Flak Battalion with 12 20mm guns.

Strangely enough this exact same unit its also attached to the 18th (mot) INF DIV in document 941GHAJ.... Typo ?

Document 942GLAK you'll see a vast increase in FLAK defense. Title: German 60th (mot) Infantry Division Field Organization 21 December 1942. It has the following Flak Organizations:
10th Btry/160th Artillery Regiment (2 20mm & 3 88mm guns)
12th Btry/160th Artillery Regiment (11 20mm guns)
11th Btry/160th Artillery Regiment (3 88mm & 3 20mm guns)

Strange that these units are listed as Artillery Regiments.......

Here are some link of German Half Tracks that I've found that were built with Mounted AA:
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/...ks/sdkfz-6.asp
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/...ks/sdkfz-7.asp
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/.../sdKfz-251.asp
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/...s/sdkfz-10.asp
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  #37  
Old 06-15-2012, 07:37 PM
csThor csThor is offline
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That's because in 1942 an Army Flak Battalion was attached to most mobile divisions as 4th Battalion of the divisional Artillery Regiment. This Army Flak Battalion was made up of three batteries, first and second with a light platoon with three 20mm Flak and a heavy platoon with four 88mm Flak 18/36/37 while the third battery had twelve 20mm guns. In 1943, however, these battalions were moved away from the Artillery Regiment and subordinated to the divisional staff directly.

In 1941 the divisional anti-tank battalion of a mobile division had one integral Flak company with self-propelled guns of the SdKfz 10/4, SdKfz 10/5 and SdKfZ 7/1 type (except 3rd, 19th and 20th Panzer Division - these had none) while 17th and 18th Panzer Divisions had to use pulled flak guns.
Some divisions even added a flak company to each motorized infantry / Panzergrenadier Battalion in late 1941, but this was by no means universal.

Source: Osprey Battle Orders - Panzer Divisions: The Eastern Front 1941 - 43

PS: The issue with the attached company from 52nd Self Propelled Flak Battalion is likely a typo. I guess it means one battery of this battalion was attached to the unit.
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  #38  
Old 06-15-2012, 08:13 PM
schilla22 schilla22 is offline
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Ok that makes more sense. I'm specifically researching Western Front 1940-1941 by the way. Since that's all we can really portray with CLOD right now.

Came across some new information.

I Flak Corps: Formed 1939. Assigned to Luftflotte 3, with units being assigned to Panzer Grouppe Kleist for Battle of France.
Contained the I Flak Brigade, and II Flak Brigade

II Flak Corps: Formed 1939. Assigned to Luftflotte 2. Assigned to support 4th Army (Kluge) and 6th Army (Reichenau).
Contained III Flak Brigade

IV Flak Brigade assigned to Munich defense 1940

VI Flak Brigade served in both Belgian and French Campaigns. Served around Paris. 1941 restationed to Darmstadt

VII Flak Brigade: Rear Echelon Defense during Battle for France

X Flak Brigade: Formed July 1940, defense of Dortmund
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  #39  
Old 06-18-2012, 09:27 PM
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Kongo-Otto Kongo-Otto is offline
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I.Flakkorps
II.Flakkorps
Flak-Brigade IV
Flak-Brigade VI
Flak-Brigade VII

Need more info?
Go to http://www.ww2.dk/ then go to Ground units and then to Flak Units.
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  #40  
Old 06-19-2012, 08:38 AM
schilla22 schilla22 is offline
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I've been using that website also Kongo. Good site, just find it difficult at times to find the information that I'm looking for.
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