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Units, artifacts and armor-bearers Discussion, questions and solutions about units, artifacts and armor-bearers.

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  #1  
Old 02-18-2010, 02:18 PM
mcgriffin mcgriffin is offline
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Wink Valuing Items by Runes

Disclaimer: the following calculations and interpretations are only meant to be pure maths games and serve as self-entertaining purpose only. This is no indication or has any valuation value to the usefulness of the items in the game, nor do I intend to engage into any argues on the validness of this whole idea (of valuing items with runes). However, any discussion on the modification/improvement of the idea/some specific formula, or additions of new items/sets, are welcomed. I'm open and glad to have any discussion if it's not just 'bah, this is meaningless' or 'it's a waste of time' sort of reply.
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  #2  
Old 02-18-2010, 02:19 PM
mcgriffin mcgriffin is offline
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Wink Part I

The basic idea is to use hero skills as the gauge to value most properties of items in terms of runes spent in order to obtain the same effect from a skill (or multiple skills).

The list of properties in terms of rune value (corresponding skills in parenthesis)

rage : 36 = 24 rage -> 1.5 runes/rage (rage control)
attack/defense = 32/6 attack, 27/5defense, 33/3attack+3defense -> 5.5 runes/attack or defense
(heroism, resistance & the power of spirit)
% critical : 36 = 10% -> 3.6 runes/% critical (prayer)
---- side note: 1 attack/defense = 1.53% crit, equivalent to the case of |attack - defense| = 35
% experience : 39 = %20 -> 2 runes/% (learning)
% cash : 18 = 30% -> 0.6 rune/% (trophies)
intellect : 5 runes/int (linguistics)
mana : 1.5 runes/mana (absolute balance - rage)
scrolls : 30 = 18 mana + 9 scrolls -> 0.33 rune/ scroll (wisdom - mana)
% restore mana : 27 = 100% + 12 mana = 100% + 18 -> 0.09 rune/% (meditation - mana)
attacking spell power: 36 = 50% -> 0.72/% (destroyer)
mana/turn : 9 runes = 2 mana/turn -> 4.5 runes/(mana/turn) (concentration)
extra magic : 42 / 6 extras = 7 runes/extra magic(higher magic)
% damage: suppose |attack - defense| = 20, +1 attack = + 3.33%/(1.67) = +2% damage -> 2.75 runes/% damage
% all resistance : use divine armor (without int modifier)
---- 35% = lvl3 order + 30 mana/4turn + 2 extra magic in first 10 turns + lvl3 magic light
---- 30% = 38 + 33.75 + 14 -> 2.86 runes/%
or 35% = 38 + 33.75 + 14 + 27 -> 3.22 runes/%
---- ~= 3 runes/% all resist
initiative : use battle cry
---- 3 initiative = lvl3 order + 15 mana/3turn + 3 extra magic in first 10 turns
---- 3 = 38 + 22.5 + 21 -> 27 runes/initiative
speed : use lvl3 haste
---- +2 speed = lvl3 distortion + 10 mana/4 turn + 2 extra magic in first 10 turns
---- 2 speed = 39 + 11.25 + 14 -> 32 runes/speed
% physical resistance : use stone skin
---- 40% - 1 initiative = lvl3 distortion + 7 mana/5turn + 2 extra magic in first 10 turns
---- 40% = 27(initiative) + 39 + 6.3 + 14 -> 2.2 runes/%
% fire/poison/magic/astral resistance
---- = (% all - % physical)/4 = 0.2 runes/% (reasonable since they are specific while physical is universal)
morale : suppose troop = 20 attack/defense 10% crit
---- 1 morale= 2 attack + 2 defense + 2% crit = 22 + 7.2 = 30 runes/morale
+ % leadership : suppose |attack - defense| = 0, 1 attack + 1 defense = 3.33% more damage + 3.33% less loss = 3.33% more troops, thus +1% leadership = 1/3 attack + 1/3 defense = 3.67 runes/%
+ leadership : suppose 30k leadership in the end, +1000 leadership = +3.33% leadership = 11 runes

Last edited by mcgriffin; 02-18-2010 at 02:41 PM.
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  #3  
Old 02-18-2010, 02:20 PM
mcgriffin mcgriffin is offline
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Smile Part II

Now here are some interesting items in rune value. I chose these because they are most highly valued (or just fun to see its rune score ) Further, I assume using full same race army if some specific racial properties are taken into account. GB means gift bag.

Weapon:
Mechanical Blade = 5 attack + 3 defense -10% leadership = 44 - 36.7 = 7.3 runes (too bad!)
Elkonium = 30 mana - 3 attack = 45 -16.5 = 28.5 runes (surprisingly not too bad in the end)
Archmages Staff = 5 int + 20% damage of archmage = 5 int + 4% damage average ~ 5 int + 2 attack = 36 runes (overrated)
Axe of Lightning III = 5 attack + 10% crit = 27.5 + 36 = 64 runes
Axe of Ice III = 7 defense + 10% physical resist = 38.5 + 22 = 50.5 runes + no retaliation (works for lvl 2-4 dwarves) (good if use dwarves)
Dagger of Judgement = 20% crit = 72 runes
Royal Hammer = 5 attack -15% leadership = 5 attack + 17.7% leader = 27.5 + 65 = 92.5 runes (good if use dwarves)
Singing Dagger = 5 attack + 15 rage + 15% damage = 5 + 15/2 attack + 15 rage = 68.75 + 22.5 = 91.25 runes (good if use lizards)
Demetrius III = 4 attack -20% leadership = 4 attack + 25% leadership = 113.67 runes (ZOMG if use demons)
Claw of K'Tahu = 7 attack + 1 morale + 1 initiative = 38.5 + 30 + 27 = 95.5 runes (good if use lizards)

Shield:
Mithril shield = 8 defense = 44 runes
Live Shield IV (GB) = 5 defense + 25% poison resist = 27.5 + 20 = 47.5 runes

Armor:
Slippery Cuirass = 2 defense + 10% physical = 11 + 22 = 33 runes
Magician's Cape = 20 mana + 30% magic resist = 30 + 6 = 36 runes

Dress:
Leather Dress = 5% all resist = 15 runes
Dress of Princess = 1000 leader + 1 int = 3.33% leader + 1 int = 11 + 5 = 16 runes
Dress of Magess = 4 int + 800 leader + 30% crit = 20 + 8.8 + 6% crit (average) = 50.4 runes (good)

Helmet:
Crystal Helmet = 10 mana + 10% attacking spell = 15 + 7.2 = 22.2 runes (not worth it)
Mask of Hate = 15 rage + 1 initiative = 22.5 + 27 = 49.5 runes (nice!)
Jolly Cap (GB) = 3 int + 1 moral = 15 + 30 = 45 runes (good if use humans)
Chaos Crown (GB) = 5 mana + 5 rage + 50% magic/astral resist = 15 + 10 x 2 = 35 runes

Belt:
Belt of Luck = 10% crit = 36 runes
Well of Mana Belt = 20% restore mana + 3 mana/turn = 1.8 + 13.5 = 15.3 runes (oops)
Belt of Winner (GB) = + 50% base defense (suppose = 20) + 1 speed = 55 + 32 = 87 runes (nice!) (much higher if use dragons!)

Gloves:
Hand of Necropolis = 2 attack + 2 defense + 10% exp = 22 + 20 = 42 runes (all time best)
Scaly Bracelet = 10 mana + 2 morale = 15 + 60 = 75 runes (good if use lizards)
Bracelet of Fury = 15 rage + 20% fire resist + 10% crit = 22.5 + 4 + 36 = 62.5 runes (good if use demons)
Gloves of Destroyer(GB) = 20% attacking spells + 10% all but physical resist = 14.4 + 4 x 2 = 22.4 runes (overrated)

Shoes:
Twinkling Boots = 15% physical = 33 runes
Golden Boots = 2 defense + 20% cash + 3% crit = 11 + 12 + 10.8 = 34 runes
Princess Shoes = 2 attack + 15 rage = 11 + 22.5 = 33.5 runes
Perfect Shoes = 30 mana = 45 runes
Sandals of Martyr (GB) = 4 int + 1000 leadership ( - 1 speed) = 4 int + 3.33% leadership ( - 1 speed) = 20 + 11( - 32) = 31 (-1) runes (don't use it if all walkers, good for all flyers army or walkers don't walk, e.g. shooters)

Ragalia:
Demon Tongue = 10 rage + 10% crit = 15 + 36 = 51 runes (good if use demons)
Shark's Tooth = 5% cash + 5% exp = 13 runes
Diploma in Anti-Magic = 2 defense + 2 int + 25% magic resist = 11 + 10 + 5 = 26 runes
Diploma in Lizardology = 10 rage + 5 attack + 10% crit Tirex = 15 + 27.5 + 2% crit average = 50 (good if use lizards)
Marshal's Baton = 1000 leadership + 1 morale = 3.33% leadership + 1 morale = 11 + 30 = 41 runes (good if use humans)

Artifact:
Skull of Death = 5 attack + 5 int = 27.5 + 25 = 52.5 runes (not as high as expected)
Drakonix = -20% leadership for red dragon = + 25% red dragon = +5% leadership average = 18.3 runes (not worth it!)
Dragon Chain = 3 attack + 2 defense + 1 int (+ 10 attack) = 32.5 (87.5) runes (good when attacking dragons)
Ancient Amulet = 4 int + 15 mana = 20 + 22.5 = 42.5 runes
Horn of King Borg = 5 attack - 10% leadership = 5 attack + 11.1% leadership = 27.5 + 40.7 = 68.2 runes (good if use dwarves)
Ring of Power = 3 attack + 10% crit gorguana -10% leader gorgul = 16.5 + 2% crit average + 2% leadership average = 31 (not bad, if use lizards)
Moneylender's Ring = 5 int - 30% cash = 25 - 18 = 7 runes (I knew it!)
Portrait of the Dragon = 1 initiative + 5% crit = 27 + 18 = 45 runes
Skull of Wizard (GB) = 10 mana + 20 scrolls = 15 + 6.7 = 21.7 runes (very handy at times)
Heart of Dragon (GB) = 1 morale -10% leadership = 1 morale + 11.1% leadership = 30 + 40.7 = 70.7 runes (good if use dragons)
Holy Ring (GB) = -50% undead/demon attack/defense (suppose both = 20) = +10 attack & defense = 110 runes + raises morale of paladins etc. (holy sh*t!)

HERO:
a lvl 60 hero receives 60*12 = 720 runes, way more than one single slot, and probably more than all the slots she equipped. But wait, her slots (for warrior using moro dark) = 3 weapons + 2 armors + 2 helmets + 1 boots + 1 gloves + 1 belt + 1 dress + 1 artifact = (most) 3 x 90 + 2 x 30 + 2 x 50 + 45 + 40 + 40 + 50 + 70 = 680! So the items you find in the game is roughly as important as a full-fledged hero! Luck really is important for your amelie's overall power, alas!

Medals:
some are more important than others. I'll leave the calculations to tomorrow, tho... need to sleep now

Last edited by mcgriffin; 02-18-2010 at 02:41 PM.
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  #4  
Old 02-18-2010, 03:25 PM
pavned pavned is offline
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Nice job, but the biggest flaw is that some skill required a whole chain of skill to be enable. So some skill worth a lot more then the cost in runes to unlock it.

Per exemple, the well of mana belt

gives you +20% mana recovery and +3 mana/turn

The skill concentration gives you 2 mana/turn for 9 runes.

But you need to unlock at least 4 skills for the mage (5 for other classes) meaning you need a combine cost of 39 runes to at least get +2 mana/turn.

It does give you other skills: + int., +4 mana, +30% recovery, unlock order magic and +15% to some order spell

Base on your calculation:

+1 int = 5 runes
+ 4 mana: 6 runes
+15% to some order spell using the value for damage % on attacking spell = 10,8 runes(~11)
- I didn'T count the difference in % recovery (20% for the belt vs 30% for the skill)

Meaning to get the cost for 2 mana/turn skill only you need to invest (for mage) : 39 runes - 22 runes = 17 runes (instead f the 9 for the sole cost of the skill!)

So 1 mana/turn = 8,5 runes

Meaning the Well of Mana belt worth 25,5 runes instead of the 15,3 runes.

But the investment in rune is temper with leveling up of the skill meaning for +8 mana/turn doesn'T cost 8 * 8,5 but a base 39 for the first +2 mana/turn plus 27 for the extra 6 mana/turn

for a total of 66 runes - 22 runes (added skills) = 44 runes for 8 mana/turn

So 1 mana/turn = 5,5 runes

The well of mana = 16,5 runes

Now it's a lot closer to you value. So the value of the well of mana belt is between 16,5 runes and 25,5 runes.

But I wonder why you chose Absolute balance for the mana, you could simply use the wisdom skill since it cost a lot less and I don't think you should count the scroll ability towards it :

20 runes for +18 mana --> 1 mana/ rune
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Old 02-18-2010, 03:33 PM
mcgriffin mcgriffin is offline
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So we did obtain similar result using different ways for the well of mana! That's a good sign that the numbers are self-consistent

For your second point, I chose Absolute Balance because in the game, mana and rage are treated on an equal footing, so it makes sense that both rage/mana = 1.5 runes. Also lvl3 wisdom requires 9 + 10 + 11 = 30 runes, even without counting scrolls that's 30/18 = 1.67 runes/mana. So in the end I use 1.5 runes/mana.

Last edited by mcgriffin; 02-18-2010 at 03:44 PM.
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  #6  
Old 02-18-2010, 04:34 PM
KongMysen KongMysen is offline
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Just a short note:

You level up only 59 times to reach lvl 60
And lvl 51-60 only gives 5 runes per level.

So a lvl 60 hero has gained 49x12 + 10x5 = 638 runes (Or does a level hero start with 12 runes?)


However you find a whole bunch of runes though exploring maps and digging in combat so I guess it equals.


Edit: I just checked my current lvl 49 mage and so far I gained 705 Runes + 30 runes from items. I'm digging 3 times each battle and have not replayed any fight because I only got crap.

And regarding the extra 30 runes... Ancient Amulet, Gladiator Sword and Banner of true Faith should all get 10 more "points" for the Runes unlocked

Last edited by KongMysen; 02-18-2010 at 04:43 PM.
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  #7  
Old 02-18-2010, 08:52 PM
pavned pavned is offline
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Fro the Drakonix I think your assumption are wrong. It should be treated as a definate number of Leadership instead of leadership % since it affect only Red Dragons and not creatures in general.

You then get a definate +400 Leadership: -20% on 2000 --> 400

With Glory you know that you need 27 runes for 700 leadership, so every 100 leadership worth 3,86 runes

So the Drakonix value in runes is only 15,43, less then your 18,3

Then again are numbers compare!


Considering that this necklace cost 150k, it really doesn'T worth it!

Love the exercice!

I think, for all the items giving -% leadership requirements it should be base on the mean cost for that race leadership value. I think some race cast more then others for same level units. Or maybe evaluate the added damge link to that %leadership (having 10% more foreman per exemple). Will be tough but it seems that %leadership do tend to favor items giving that kind of effect in your results.

PS KongMysen does make a good point the 3 items giving runes afetr battles, the runes should be counted.
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Old 02-19-2010, 01:50 AM
MaroonMaurader MaroonMaurader is offline
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I'm not sure that a linearly-proportional reward is the right way to approach this sort of comparison.
Consider for example % experience boosts, and comparison to Learning. For 13 runes, you get 10%. For the next 26 runes, you get another 10%.
Or consider Prayer, which gives you 3% for 10, another 4% for the next 12, and another 3% for the 14 after that.
Or consider Glory, which will give 100 leadership for the first 7, 250 more for the next 9, and 350 more for the next 11 after that.
Or you can consider resistance, value based on stoneskin I. Resistance suddenly looks more valuable: 2.8 runes per I believe.

There are four ways I see of dealing with this sort of problem. The first it to throw up your hands and declare it a lost cause. The second is to simply choose to always use either the worst, best or some sort of average value. The third is to make it a function of domains - for resistance that is less than 20%, use the stoneskin I result; for resistance between 20 and 30, use stoneskin II result, etc. The third is to try and actually fit some sort of function to these varying results. Problem is any of these solutions other than the "throw up your hands" one takes a fair amount of work.

Finally, for the +gold items... I think if you're reasonably careful you'll end up with surplus gold in this game, so your primary expense becomes buying runes. So this is actually a case where you *can* make a direct, hard to dispute comparison between the two. Figure 2.5 million gold from fights in this game (plus another 1.5 million from assorted chests, quests, random piles lying around, etc.). Then 1% more gold after combat is 25,000 more gold over the course of the game. Even valuing one rune at only 100,000 gold (which is really the bare minimum), +gold becomes worth only 0.25 runes per percent. At the (still low) value of 250k, +gold is worth only 0.1 runes per percent.
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